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Two questions: Nightbane & Kara

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Two questions: Nightbane & Kara

Postby Ariashley » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:05 am

I was solo tanking the last half of a Kara fr Curator forward Saturday night (picked up some nice pants) - first time tanking anything there at all, but mainly because ppl in the guild were trying to finish a previosly started run and there were no other tanks available.

First Question: Got squashed by Nightbane twice - once because I wasn't in the right place to pick him up. Once because I got parry insta-gibbed. Someone else in the group hopped on a feral druid to tank him and later, for prince, druid also tanked him (I slapped on some healing gear and healed and cleansed SW pain for Prince and tanked the adds, sort of, for Nightbane). Should I use my Sun-Eater for Nightbane instead of my Continuum Blade? If so, how do I gain threat with pretty much no spell damage? Do I use Seal of Blood? With buffs, I was hitting nearly 15k health and was uncrushable.

Second Question: My current situation is that my paladin is an alt in a guild that raids BT and has cleared Hyjal enough that we may not go back (most people got their T6 2 sets from there). If I get a heroic group from people in the guild, I really can't hold aggro, because I can't yet throw off 700 TPS in my gear (which is about what I need to keep up with their 1k DPS without raid buffs) and definitely fail in a Karazhan raid (since I would need about 840 TPS). I'm consistently getting about 550-600 TPS. My options are to 1) leave my alt paladin in this guild, perhaps get to OT some Karas (if people go or I happen to get invited on what they call my "failadin" and get perpetually insulted for being a scrub, which I am comparitively) and basically accumulate badges primarily through heroic PUGs until I can get enough for good gear or 2) find a different guild for my paladin with a raid schedule that doesn't conflict with my current guilds and get to successfully MT heroics and/or Karazhans and probably future other raids. It's really frustrating to be more successful in a PUG than in a guild group :(
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Postby Catriona » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:19 am

Don't go on guild runs. If they're being assholes about it tell them to play hide and go @#$% themselves and go run with people who'll appreciate you.
After a couple heroic Magister's runs on my alt tankadin with a DPS warrior from my main's guild, I now just tell him no when he asks me to tank it. It's not worth the hassle, and he's not even mean about it - he just makes tanking more exhausting than fun and I won't deal with it anymore.

On Nightbane I've noticed the best place to tank him is across from a skull lying on the ground near one of the "corners" of the tower bit the ledge goes around (if that makes any sense whatsoever). The parrygib was not your fault. Your spell damage weapon is fine for him.
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Postby GothicPL » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:36 am

Don't be discouraged, as Nightbane is probably the hardest fight to execute for a new tank in Kara because of very strict positioning requirements.

The first time he lands is by the skull on the ground. Tank him against the outer wall, as others have said, this way you and him will be in the line of sight of ranged and healers, and they'll have wiggle room to dance around charred earth.
Make sure he faces you straight, or keep readjusting him until he does. This way melee DPS can safely hit him from the side (they should know their positioning.) The parry-gib you are talking about most likely came from melee DPS hitting him from the front, and that may have been either your and their fault. Try to communicate positioning on vent.

The subsequent pick-ups are harder, as you may be still finishing skeletons, and his landing spot moves a little bit every time. Make sure no one does anything when he lands, get a seal up and use exorcism to pull. Melee DPS should not touch him until you position him properly again.

Get an add-on such as BigWigs that will estimate his landing time.

All this assumes you got fears covered. Call for Fear Ward on you before you summon him, this way it'll be refreshed sooner into the fight.

Shamans should put their tremor totems down when they see him cast fear, this will help melee DPS not to lose their positions.

Even with all these, I put on my PvP trinket instead of a stamina trinket for this fight when Fear Ward is not available or Tremor Totem timing is off. Get ready to use it when you see him cast Fear and there is no Fear Ward on you.
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Postby Ariashley » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:41 pm

The 2nd time I did get him positioned properly, just got smooshed.

And ya - I hear you about the exhausting. It much easier for me to tell some idiot I don't know to quit hitting mobs that haven't hit me yet with lightning bolts or gtfo (or die, whichever comes first). I do tell guild mates on my runs to either downrank, wand, wait til the mob is almost dead or quit bitching about tanking it. I'd rather have people with my gear level in my groups. I rarely run oom (since I can use Judgement of Wisdom). With those groups, I'm a great tank and they want me to always tank for them. With my guild mates, it makes me sad that I'm a scrub tank. :(

It's the reason why I've been considering finding a different guild for my paladin. We have a bunch of people in my guild with alts in different guilds. I think most of those are concentrated on in just a few guilds, maybe three or four. I probably should ask around and find out if any of those guilds needs a Kara tank. Having tanked the harder half of Karazhan now (except Netherspite - which we didn't have time for and Prince) I'm pretty confident that I could be successful with a less trigger happy, overgeared group. It will take longer, but I also would have to hear less about somebody's 50g repair bill, being a failadin, etc... when they know I can't hold aggro off their max rank pyroblast in the first place.

It's enough of a pain being one of 4 women in a guild with 65 accounts, where only 2 of us are main raiders (and the other has had several recent deaths in her family and has been missing from nearly a month's worth of raids now). So pretty much, I'm the only female in a 25-person raid or a 10-person raid, whatever the size. If I wasn't top 3 in every raid's DPS and the other main raider wasn't top 2 on the healing charts in every raid, I'm sure we would both be standing outside staring at an instance portal waving a rose for 4 hours, listening to the "men" raid. She got her spot because it was her brother's - and he stopped playing. I got mine because I spent a couple of months staring at instance portals and when main raiders didn't show up, I did kick ass DPS.
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Postby GothicPL » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:16 pm

Trigger happy DPS is certainly something that makes raids more stressful.

I'm in the opposite situation - my guild understands all three tank types, and they are very open to learning how to take advantages of each.

I started appreciating my guildies even more after a recent PUG Kara with some other folks, where a DPS warrior (big surprise, I know :)) would keep pulling mobs off of me. Eventually he pulled Maiden off too and died 5 seconds later. Of course, he would also insist on Kings instead of Salv.

Anyway, I'd rather spend more time clearing Kara in a fun and relaxing atmosphere rather than rushing through the instance desperately trying to outthreat impatient and overgeared DPS from other guilds. I play the game for fun, not for badges-per-hour.

It sounds like you need to find a guild whose members are not jerks with a macho complex. People who call me names are on my ignore list. If a guildie starts calling other guildies names, he gets kicked out promptly.
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An extension of this discussion

Postby ldeboer » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:07 pm

First time I did this I failed to grab him but then worked out I could frisbie him as he is coming in to land.

I had to make sure raid understood I cant taunt him like a tank can without him first targetting someone (and prob killing) so at each landing wait for consecrate before starting dps.

Now my actual question is I have seen on forum dps can continue to dps him in the air so where is the actual agro reset point?
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Postby Ariashley » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:10 am

GothicPL wrote:Anyway, I'd rather spend more time clearing Kara in a fun and relaxing atmosphere rather than rushing through the instance desperately trying to outthreat impatient and overgeared DPS from other guilds. I play the game for fun, not for badges-per-hour.

It sounds like you need to find a guild whose members are not jerks with a macho complex. People who call me names are on my ignore list. If a guildie starts calling other guildies names, he gets kicked out promptly.


Meh. The name calling isn't that big a deal (since half the guild will call our arrogant emo tank Failo instead of his toon name of Balo, and sometimes refer to Kaiserofwar as Failureofwar - seems to be a contest to fit fail into the name somehow). It's just completely frustrating that I can't really play my Paladin with the people I usually play with, frustrating on all sides.

It isn't an issue with my rogue, who is comparably geared with any of my guild mates. My rogue is wanted for arenas (since I don't care about it and have pretty much full S3), ZA, Kara, BT, Hyjal, heroics or whatever. On my rogue, all instances are about speed. ZA timed events, 2 hr Kara clears, 20 min heroics. 2.5 hr Hyjal clears, clearing through all of BT we've progressed through in less than our alloted raid time in one night.

But ya - for Kara with my Paladin - not built for speed yet. Can't possibly clear a heroic in 20 min because I couldn't keep up in threat with that much DPS. I just want to putter along at my current level and don't want to be carried through Kara as the useless 9th person that doesn't get to tank anything or really do anything and just loads up on gear. Joined a different guild with my paladin last night along with another raiding guildmate (whose main is our tankadin). I'm the only tankadin and the only tank of any kind with raid experience. Most of the healers and DPS have alts with raiding experience. For whatever reason, they've had a rough time finding tanks with any experience at all. I didn't have any problems tanking heroics for members of that guild, so hopefully, this will work out better for me.

Now my actual question is I have seen on forum dps can continue to dps him in the air so where is the actual agro reset point?


Resets when he lands. DPS should stop (and healing briefly) for the split second before he lands and when you firmly pick him up.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:33 am

Ari, it's that simple...the problem isn't you. If your paladin has yet to adjust to the gear level, than the others should adapt to that reality. They can't expect you to make a full t5+ paladin out of a whore's ass or somewhere just as obscure.THEY have to adjust to your pace, and as you gear up, the faster the pace becomes, till being up to par with theirs.

And of course, the better they adjust to yours for gearing, the faster you'll get there.
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Postby Zeruvar » Fri May 02, 2008 6:34 am

yeah, id have to agree with the other folks. Its definitely not your problem. You really just needed to find people to play with that understands your needs as a tank.

I've had that same problem too in my old guild. It wasnt as bad as yours was with the namecalling. But being an up and coming tank, raid leaders would always pick on the better geared tanks over me to take on raids. Wasnt really much of a problem for me at first, since I knew I can still work on my gear outside of raids. But when your the only available offtank they can take to a kara run (which at that time i was already geared for OT duties), and they had to wait and call one of the other tanks to take along, then you know somethings going on. I only got into 10 mans because my friends started a new group, which helped me get started raiding. And on 25 mans, I realized I needed to spec Ret to be taken along (which really helped me appreciate how hard Retadins have to work to have a raid slot if your new). I just got tired of this, plus some of my friends left WoW, so I looked around for another guild.

Finding a new one really turned out great. If I'm signed up, and wouldnt upset the raid balance, Im definitely in the raid. They've supported me as a pally tank (giving me and 1 other pally tank loot priorities for tanking pieces if were on the raid) especially now since were starting with MH content. And best of all, if I mess up (First time MTing in ZA, or heroics I've never tanked before) they dont go qqing about it and just tell me how I can do better.

P.S. In case you were wondering, yes were not into BT content yet. Our server is slow on progression, but Im glad to say our guilds working really hard to see more endgame content.
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Postby jere » Fri May 02, 2008 6:38 am

Ariashley wrote:
Now my actual question is I have seen on forum dps can continue to dps him in the air so where is the actual agro reset point?


Resets when he lands. DPS should stop (and healing briefly) for the split second before he lands and when you firmly pick him up.


I think he actually resets when he emotes that he is going to land. A small difference, but means more when you consider people are healing up after the air phase.
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