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stuck in the middle

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby deadpyrowalking » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:30 pm

because maybe i can still OT it i just dont think that i could make it far enough in to constitute a good run and dont want to have to leave 9 other people screwed over cuz i cant tank it past chess or something stupid like that... i can still OT it and get the required gear to be able to MT the whole thing but i dont want to half ass it the first time thru... its not a year ago when people had to progress it
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Postby ldeboer » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:39 pm

deadpyrowalking wrote:i know we arent supposed to do this but also anyone looking at this post could you give my gear a quick look, i might not have on my continuum blade sometimes (i do quests with my KD) and i also have alt gear.... if i do have my tank gear on could you look at my gear/chants/gems and give any suggestions? ill try to log off with my best gear on


Armory is down atm so cant look at you

Seriously listen to these guys they are very good

This is almost my original gear when I first joined the forum here well its actually the fixed version after they got me to put proper chants and gems in I was gemming for gear bonuses :)

http://www.warcrafter.net/sandbox/39308

There isnt a single thing from kara its all crafted, pvp reward and quest or rep reward and I tanked up to and including curator in it. I had to take a flask of fortitude to get the extra 10 def and it gives extra 500HP

I wont say I wasnt concerned watching my health spike from 100 to 50% but it was doable with good healers.

With that setup I was tanking H-Bot, H-SP and H-Mech but you needed good group composition and you should be able to do the first few bosses in Kara with a good OT.

From that very basic format I added the Libram with my 1st 15 badges and got a few kara drops and went from there.

Edit: BTW if you dont have rep for time keeper legs find someone who can do felsteel legs just as good.
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Postby Ariashley » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:13 am

You can also look at my current gear. I wouldn't say it's the "ideal" gear set for pre-Kara, but it works. I hit uncrushable last night because I got the Libram of Repentance, but was doing fine without it. I'd like to pick up the ring from Arc for more pure avoidance and will probably be reenchanting my gloves with spell damage (since I've topped over uncrushable with that libram). I also am still driving for at least one of the epic rep shields (probably Crest of the Sha'tar first).

I agree that Bot is pretty reasonable on heroic. It's much easier if you have a mage or a good hunter or a great healer (don't need both). I tanked my first Heroic Botanica last night with an enhancement shaman, an elemental shaman, an affliction lock and a holy priest (who had 1100 healing when we started Mech that night a picked up a ton of upgrades during the two runs - priest also did not have a flying mount and had never been in either instance before). So I had a decent (but not great) healer and no useful cc. The elemental shaman is an idiot (I've run stuff with him before) and either died a lot or complained GET THIS OFF ME while running away with his back to a mob that resisted 2 Righteous Defense in a row. The only one really difficult to tank is the 3rd boss, who drops aggro all the time. Make sure you have a /cast [target=targettarget, help] [target=mouseover, help] [help] Righteous Defense macro bound to a key. Makes for a MUCH faster return of aggro when he drops. You will still have to chase him a bunch of times.
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Postby deadpyrowalking » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:27 pm

yea ide i have/ had the same gear as u except for the cloak which is really rare, i dont have the colossus thing cuz it never drops (ive done SH like 20 times for it) and i have some rings that i picked up luckily that are pretty rare. I have the Cot legs/sword/inscription, i have fel steel, i have jade-skull, i have most of the stuff that everyone else has its just i cant ever get further... i know everyone in here has great ideas and thx for the help but i just cant stand the people that rag on me just because im failing in the heroics department. All i was saying earlier is that i know i have the gear to do stuff it just seems like i cant for whatever reason (i.e. my skills ((like order of spells and stuff)) or my healer or whatev else) and i dont want to do kara MTing by myself because there are plenty of other tanks that CAN do it all the way and im not going to kid myself in saying that i can do it the entire way. I dont want to be the reason that 9 other people get 4 badges in kara instead of the like 20 that you can get with a full run. Im sure if i was worried that noone else could do better that I would go for MTing it but its not necessary to have to progress thru kara, people have been clearing it for over a year. I want to be an effective tank before i actually try and tank stuff... i do agree wiht you that the group compositiong is necessary, and im working on screening people to do heroics with. and aria thx for the macro im sure that will help... hopefully armory will be up soon for suggestions... i have the epic libram, dawnforged defender, most pre-kara stuff, and boots from Chess Event
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:59 pm

You say you have the gear. The problem isn't the gear then.


First of all, find a tankadin in your server that doesn't suck, and get him to tutor you. You HAVE to go in and just tank it. Having someone watching what you're doing sometimes helps.
You don't know if you can tank? Then you can't tank. Wussy attitude won't help you, i've been there.
You know what the fight will show you, all you have left to do is go in there and do it.
It's obvious you'll commit mistakes, you're human. You don't start being good at it until you actually do it. Sometimes, all it takes is to just "wing it and see what happens".
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Postby sweeney » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:12 pm

With that attitude, no, you're not MTing anything. It doesn't sound like you'd really want to tank anything, which hopefully is just me misreading you. It's not the gear -- plenty of us have tanked Lower Kara in that level of gear. Hell, it's easier to MT is than it is to OT it.

You could easily take a group through to Curator -- that's 9 badges and quite a few opportunities for gear upgrades. That's a successful Lower Kara run. Is that better than 4 badges? Don't even worry about Chess or Prince, or even Shade (although as an untankable boss, it's not like you could do anything to keep the group from killing him). Just think about Lower Kara on its own.

You could try just asking people "Hey, I'm not sure if I'm ready to tank Kara, but if you guys want to give it a try, I'll do my best. Should we try it, or just leave Kara alone for a week?"

Or, another way to put it -- Lower Kara trash hits weaker than heroic trash, AND you have multiple healers with you. I got most of my ideas on how to properly tank heroics from Kara, not the other way around. Kara's also got better documented boss encounters, to the point where you can be totally prepared.

Well, anyway, best of luck and don't tank if you don't enjoy it. Once you get warmed up to it working with a good group, it really doesn't feel like the weight of the raid is on your shoulders.
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Postby turion350 » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:17 am

To the OP,

I know you started another Forum about being uncrushable and took some criticisms for your build. I checked you out on the armory and saw that you changed some, but still need to tweek. I use the "cookie cutter build" of 49/12. It works great for me. You do not, I repeat, DO NOT need epics or badge gear to main tank Kara. I went into Kara, MT, with all blues. I am telling you this only to try and help you. You should take the main tank spot, as an off tank, you will not be good.

I farmed Steam Vaults to death to get the devilshark cloak, I was exalted till I got it and could do a run in 35 mins. I ended up using the chest out of there as well, BreastPlate of Righteous, till I got my 75 badges. I used felsteel gloves,and helm and time warden leggins. I used the shield from the first boss in Shadow Labs with the enchant "shield block", not tough shield, many enchanters want to give you that one. I used the Shatri wrist gaurds till i could get the phalanx. The boots, flesh metal grieves i think they were called, i got from the escort quest in mana tombs.

I had the strength of the untamed for neck, deth'mar ring and ring of the silver hand, again from steam vaults. With some defense enchants to get you uncrushable, with these items you will be around 500 defense i think, so uncrittable is there. Figurine of the Colossus from shattered halls and adimantite trinket from Darkheart in shadow labs as well. Shoulders from botanica, again exalted till they dropped, but got them.

I had a goal to go in uncrushable and main tank. I had a small guild that was progressing itself, so I had to do these normal, not heroic, instances to obtain my gear so that I could do it. One thing I highly advise that will help a ton, switch to engineering, grind it to 350, and make your tankatronic goggles. Great helm, better than anything from Kara, and won't be replacing till bout Black Temple I believe.

You can do it, in my opinion and many others that I have now tanked for, there is nothing better than a Pally main tank. If you want more help, email me, I don't mind helping a fellow pally tank. I came here and learned everything from this site and willing to share what I got from it. If you don't try to get ahead of yourself, you can build yourself to be a great tank, and from pugging to do the lvl 70 instances, you might meet some people worth raiding with.
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Postby turion350 » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:28 am

sorry, forgot to add something in the book i just wrote, as a pally tank, you want to be main tank, always. if you are not main tanking, you should be insulted. be confident, run in, leroy jenkins it, and hold those guys. mark them up, throw avengers shield, holy shield, consecrate, judge, rinse, repeat. as a tank, you have to be confident, almost arrogant, but not foolish. a pally tank can not sit on the sidelines and take scraps. you take the full meal and you let that inferior warrior take your scraps:)
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Postby Elvidnir » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:12 am

turion350 wrote:sorry, forgot to add something in the book i just wrote, as a pally tank, you want to be main tank, always. if you are not main tanking, you should be insulted. be confident, run in, leroy jenkins it, and hold those guys. mark them up, throw avengers shield, holy shield, consecrate, judge, rinse, repeat. as a tank, you have to be confident, almost arrogant, but not foolish. a pally tank can not sit on the sidelines and take scraps. you take the full meal and you let that inferior warrior take your scraps:)


There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin.
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Postby turion350 » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:21 am

Elvidnir, my intention was that he should be confident if he wants to tank. he cant keep sitting back and think he isnt good enough to tank. As to where do you see the flaw?
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Postby sweeney » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:30 am

For one, there were a lot of ways you could put that without using the phrase "inferior warrior tank", we gotta respect our brethren.

With a MT and OT both in blues, in practice you get much more of an even split of responsibilities. (Sure, when you get geared up and have a feral to OT, then he goes bear for like five pulls and you AOE the rest, but that's not gonna work in blues.)
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Postby Elvidnir » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:12 am

There's a major difference between confidence and being a foolhardy jackass. The tone of your post suggested he be the latter, at least from where I'm sitting.

Being hateful to other tanking classes will get you nowhere fast.
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Postby turion350 » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:46 am

again, not being hateful, and you guys reading to deep into it, don't know if you have ever had a pep talk from a coach, merely trying to talk him up, if you read this post and others, he doesn't have a lot of confidence as a tank. trying to boost that for him, i have no hatred among our fellow tanking classes, just like a coach, he really doesn't hate the opposing team nor does he really wish for you to kill the other kid when he tells you to nail them. not meant for all of you to take it and read too deep into it, im sure plenty of people knew i was merely telling him he needs to have confidence to step up.

he will not get anywhere if he keeps doubting himself and too scared to main tank anything. analyze as much as you want, but don't take a simple pep talk and start treating it like an ass statement. never insulted anyone on here, so dont get off by saying being a jerk.
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Postby turion350 » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:49 am

oh and by saying inferior warrior tank, you guys sound like i made a racist comment, only again trying to put out that he needs to have the mentality that he is just as good as they are. so again, a pep talk, not being a foolhardy jackass and had hoped people would have had enough common sense to see that, especially with a leroy jenkins comparison, surely no one thinks he would be used as a legitimate role model.
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Postby Elvidnir » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:02 am

The problem is, since the string of Prot buffs hit, that mentality has pervaded the protection paladin community. It has done vastly more harm than good, and only succeeded in further alienating an already outcast tanking class.

Having been on both sides of the fence I can safely say that self-righteousness and egotism are two of the worst aspects of the typical protection paladin. I for one quit my warrior and the alliance entirely due to the terrible attitude of protection paladins where I was playing. Hated to see a character with over 150 days /played languish but it stopped being fun.
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