Is it me or...

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Agarious » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:22 am

Lore wrote:How is a Paladin, realistically, any worse than any other tank, for Brutallus especially? I think you are looking at the numbers "on paper" and not how they work out in practice.

We take 4% more damage, on average, on Brutallus, this is true. Ardent Defender doesn't always work on him. Neither of those particularly matter, because:

a) You're getting spammed with heals so much that 4% more damage taken just means 4% less overhealing
b) *ANY* tank that gets low enough for Ardent Defender to matter is going to die

Now look at what we bring to the table. Brutallus' fast attack speed, plus being a demon = ridiculous threat gen in a DPS race encounter. Nearly all of my Holy Shield charges are used every time I cast it.

So, you've got:

Meaningless mitigation bonuses
Fight-breaking DPS bonuses

I would argue that Paladins make the BEST tanks for Brutallus.

To highlight what Lore is saying, in a sense, I feel the biggest concern a tank should have on this fight is surviving a combo of three hits in the period of one second or less (MH/OH/Stomp). Regardless of who you employ it's prudent to gear to at least survive that nasty slap in the face. I've tanked on him several times and the only thing that has wiped the raid is an unlucky combo that one shotting the tank if he's not topped up. Target number for health we looked at was at least 22K(using war/pally tank). Just my 2 cents.
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Postby Cakes » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:12 pm

Splug wrote:Heh, after a night of attempts I asked if our healers would be ok without one. The resto druid said it wasn't needed, and that he was pretty much sitting at 100% mana with one. Then a holy paladin said something very 'colorful' about druid mana regeneration, lifebloom, and game ballance. We haven't run with a shadow priest for the healers on this fight since then; giving it to the mages lets them use destruction potions and fire blossoms. Currently the healers have enough mana and the raid is surviving, but our kills are still ~5 seconds post-enrage. Besides, the healer groups all have resto shaman. Mana tide adds a fair chunk of return as well.


Ah, the bulk of our healing on this fight comes from our two pallies. While I do think they could do the fight without an spriest (just like they learned to do Najentus and Bloodboil without one), I'd prefer to play it safe and keep them stocked on mana. They'll blow through everything they have regardless of mana return.
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Postby Mithos » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:22 am

Can't say I honestly see that much of a difference in Sunwell so far, as people have said - so much healing is incoming, it doesn't really seem to matter much who is tanking.

Now that the healing is sorted on brut, I never die due to horrendous burst damage. With Scroll of Prot V and Ironshield, and the frequent MH ring proc/Inspiration, the 4% difference quickly becomes obsolete. Our warrior tank is not crap by any means, he outputs very sick threat in Sunwell as he should be, but except for last stand/SW on Kalecgos enrages you don't really notice too much difference survival wise. I even got more HP than him buffed due to the ridiculous HP scaling difference heh.

With my recent upgrades (T6 chest/bracers) I think that puts me at 19.1k unbuffed AC, with a buffed HP close approaching 24k, with around or just under 26k with a Nightmare Seed/SM Insignia use (seperately) used on each stomp. That ensures reliable survivability during stomp which is what matters (on top of threat/general survivability ofc). On paper we reduce the least damage, but as Lore said, 4% more dmg inc is just 4% less overhealing (modulo some decimals) as healing incoming is not changing regardless, and insane burst damage is still insane burst damage.

It is also true that you do not *need* the insane extra threat a pally can bring (Brut), as a warrior can produce more than enough without a shaman. But with shield block being eaten basically instantly every 5 seconds, and redoubt/holy shield/BV Libram combo producing a ridiculous amount of blocked attacks for a good amount it soon adds up to equal or better damage reduction.

Checking the WWS's for our decent Brut attempts, I have concluded the following:

Holy shield is always my highest damage ability (and so is highest threat by a LOT);
Mine and the warrior tanks max hit received were always about the same (10.5k-11.7k);
Even though I have about 17% block default and the warrior I can only imagine has at least 21% or so (complete guess, he's wearing 4/5 T6 (inc helm, no faceplates)), I am blocking between 46 and 49% of all attacks (this is with skipping Holy Shield for a second or 2 to make a more efficient threat cycle too) and he about 44-47%;
From partial blocks, I typically mitigate 2% more damage than him (and so overall), around 6.7-7.6% vs his 4.9-5.5%. This reduce the damage taken gap from 4.444...% to around 2.44...%.

This is not a rigorous statistical anaylsis of our WWS, just some basic observations, but I really don't think it matters who is tanking on him, as long as they can work out how to most effectively and reliably reduce their incoming dmg, and increase their outgoing threat.
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Postby Jikozani » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:54 am

I really don't see how people are saying 4% does not matter, when it's so similar to armor, and armor is such an important part of effective health. Of course it's not exactly 4% reduction but it's in the same vein.. so quite noticeable imo.

And I 'm not talking about theory only. In practice, I 'm beginning to feel like the most fragile tank. I 'm the one who dies. And this is truly gutting for me because in previous content I was used to being the most solid tank - but then, I was overgeared for it thanks to badge loot. Now, my guild hasn't been farming bt/mh for months and I 'm not fully kited out in gear from there. Similarly geared to our warrior however, yet I 'm the squishy. Not just because of slight mitigation differences but he 's also able to pop last stand/shield wall, especially during those stomps - I only got a trinket (giving up dual stamina for it) and seeds. We commenced our tries with me tanking first but we had to switch because I would die during the first stomp and we wanted to practice.

A tank dropping in AD range dies anyway ? I somehow doubt that. My healers once told me that they healed me up from 0%. I also notice my commendation proc, not only on brutallus but other bosses too, even when I 'm seemingly at full health all the time. This is just the effect spam healing has, but the truth is tanks do drop low quite often.
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Postby Havn » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:49 am

In my experience with the fight so far I am not the one that is dying most often. The totally geared out warrior is. I think the biggest difference is the fact that he decided to go with kael commendation as one of his trinkets.

I run with the watch and the ancient aqir artifact. I tank second so the first stomp is one trinket the second another then by the third stomp it is timed such a way that it hits him and then I taunt. My trinkets are then back up for the next stomp.

I really think it is just so important to have a trinket up for when stomp occurs. Would 4% extra be nice? You bet but it is what it is.

I am sitting right around 22.5k raid buffed in my Brutallus gear. Which has been plenty of life to handle any stomp burst so far as long as I can hit my trinket. It really is all about the healers. As long as you don't die in one round it is your healers fault most likely. Or the healing setup needs to be adjusted.
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Postby Eliane » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:00 am

If you keep dying and you're not really sure why, start frapsing. I noticed that when our tanks dies, its usually because of confusion among our healers. They start panicking and healing people they shouldnt, ie tank healers healing burns, people not moving out of slashes when they got burn etc...

I dont even bother encoding, I just watch the raw material and delete it when I'm done with it.

It's very useful for spotting mistakes all over the raid during encounters and I find it especially useful for Brutallus since when things go wrong, they go wrong FAST ;)

I also recommend using GrimReaper.
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Postby Kitara » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:09 am

Well 4% less damage taken is not just more overhealing it is 4.444...% more effective health. I think it matters more than people give it credit... that being said in many situations with no insanely hard hitting enemies that doesn't matter due to ardent defender.
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Postby Gerilith » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:15 am

Kitara wrote:Well 4% less damage taken is not just more overhealing it is 4.444...% more effective health. I think it matters more than people give it credit... that being said in many situations with no insanely hard hitting enemies that doesn't matter due to ardent defender.

It depends on the hit range. If, like at Brutallus, 2x2 (MH+OH) hits can kill every tank no matter what class he plays, 4.44% more EH do help a shit. In addition, threat matters in a DPS-fight like this.
As for Kalecgos: Ardent Defender makes up the difference and even more.
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Postby Jikozani » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:45 am

Gerilith wrote:It depends on the hit range. If, like at Brutallus, 2x2 (MH+OH) hits can kill every tank no matter what class he plays, 4.44% more EH do help a shit.

Yes they do. It's the common mistake in the stamina (effective health) vs avoidance debate, "what good is a few more hp, when you can't take more than 3 hits anyway". Sounds sensible, but it isn't. Because in practice you 're getting spam healed. Hots are ticking all the time. A tank is able to survive the 2x2 because he should recieve heals in between and what could make the difference may very well be a few hp, gained by armor reduction, a bit of stamina, or that 4.444% difference.
Tanks do drop low and are healed up. All the time. Otherwise why are we making such big health pools anyway.
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