New to heroics - my experiences

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New to heroics - my experiences

Postby Mishdorf » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:42 am

I have been browsing this forum quite a bit and have read through a lot of the comments with regards to heroics. I have also recently made uncrittable, and am now tanking heroics. I thought that I would share my experiences as a freshly minted heroic tank. So here is a list of food for thought.

1) For an undergeared pally tank, heroics can be very difficult.

2) Bring CC, lots of CC. I generally take at least one rogue/mage and preferably two to heroics with me. Warlocks are great in certain situations because banish is the greatest CC ever.

3) Choose a good healer. Find someone who knows what the heck they're doing or you will die a lot.

4) The most common times for wipes are on the first few trash pulls. Don't be discouraged, you're using these few pulls to learn how much you can take on in whichever instance you're doing.

5) Know the boss fights beforehand. Learn them in normal - that's what it's there for. Knowing the bosses generally will make doing them cake.

6) Don't start with Slave Pens unless you bring at least 2 CC, preferably 3. Slave Pens has some of the hardest trash in the game and you need to be able to have at least 3 or 4 heroic mobs whacking you at once. Much more managable is Heroic Ramps. Your DPS and healer will know this instance generally a lot better than any of the coilfang instances and the only real hard pulls are succeptible to good CC.

7) Slow and steady is the trick. I knew I was ready for heroics when I not only hit 490 defense (which is generally a very good indication that you're ready) but also when I tanked Slabbs and it was cake.

8) Don't get discouraged if you wipe the group a few times. Find people who aren't going to be too harsh on you. I caused my GM 60G repair bills the first time I did a heroic. Well, I didn't cause it all - he'd managed to kill himself before the first pull. Damned suicidal rogues :P.

9) Have fun, it's a game and you're playing to enjoy yourself. If you aren't having fun then you're doing something wrong (i.e. find another hobby).

10) Aim to forget all of this information and become one of those "heroics are so simple" pally tanks as soon as humanly possible =)
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Postby Cosmoz » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:11 am

gratz on beeing able to run heroics :)

even tho, one point of yours is very missleading.

*490 Defence does NOT make you ready for Heroics.
490 defence is easy reachable with 100% green items, without a single enchant. when I first got 490 defence I had like 8.9k HP or something like that. Trying to do a Heroic with that low HP will not be fun. I did say its very close to impossible (low HP combined with green items = low armor = low mitigation/avoidance) a lot of mobs will kill you in 2-3 hits :(
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Postby Mishdorf » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:02 pm

Cosmoz wrote:gratz on beeing able to run heroics :)

even tho, one point of yours is very missleading.

*490 Defence does NOT make you ready for Heroics.
490 defence is easy reachable with 100% green items, without a single enchant. when I first got 490 defence I had like 8.9k HP or something like that. Trying to do a Heroic with that low HP will not be fun. I did say its very close to impossible (low HP combined with green items = low armor = low mitigation/avoidance) a lot of mobs will kill you in 2-3 hits :(


I did say that it was an indication.
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Postby spelltank » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:59 am

this is actually really useful, thanks.

I'm afraid i fell victim to being discouraged by #6, i tried to join a HSP group, and they had no CC and i got owned in the first pull, and felt that im not ready for heroics, despite having decent gear (504 def and 12k health unbuffed)

With this in mind, ill try to tank another heroic, hopefully with a mage and lock or something like that :D
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Postby Laikar » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:06 am

"Find people who aren't going to be too harsh on you."

Having been starting a few heroics myself recently, this is possible the hardest thing to those of us who are forced to mainly run in PUGs.

My wife plays a healer, so that's no problem.. but, even in normal and especially in Heroic instances I keep bumping into geared (normally PvP geared) DPS classes who are used to epiced out Tanks and Healers.

Heroic, at least on my server, has become "normal"... and people are adjusted to running these instances with people who over gear them. Don't let these people's judgments on you dissuade you from trying, they need to remember that everyone needs to start somewhere.
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Postby guillex » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:46 am

The one thing that's made heroics a little MORE difficult, IMHO, is the fact that they lowered the requirement from revered to honored.

So now, instead of having people who've been working on grinding the rep, learning the instances, and getting better blues (at least), you have a bunch of scrub 70s who think they can take on the world, don't know what they're doing, and generally make shit worse.

And that, my friends, is just another indication of Blizzard being controlled by a 12 year old.
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Postby Cearn » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:06 am

spelltank wrote:this is actually really useful, thanks.

I'm afraid i fell victim to being discouraged by #6, i tried to join a HSP group, and they had no CC and i got owned in the first pull, and felt that im not ready for heroics, despite having decent gear (504 def and 12k health unbuffed)

With this in mind, ill try to tank another heroic, hopefully with a mage and lock or something like that :D


wow, your healer was asleep letting you die on that first pull unless you got like 9k armor and 10% pure avoid...
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Re: New to heroics - my experiences

Postby sapientialb » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:31 am

[quote="Mishdorf"]
6) Don't start with Slave Pens unless you bring at least 2 CC, preferably 3. Slave Pens has some of the hardest trash in the game and you need to be able to have at least 3 or 4 heroic mobs whacking you at once. Much more managable is Heroic Ramps. Your DPS and healer will know this instance generally a lot better than any of the coilfang instances and the only real hard pulls are succeptible to good CC.
quote]

I'd really disagree with this. There are tons of mobs in Ramps that do unfun nasty stuns/knockbacks that can make your life pure hell and several also have a Mortal Strike that will eat you for lunch if your healer is even slightly asleep behind the wheel.

You can skip something like 9-10 pulls in SP and easily make this run much faster. For the large groups after the big overgrown lobster boss, pull way back and have someone fear if you have crappy other CC options.
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Re: New to heroics - my experiences

Postby Kelaan » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:49 am

sapientialb wrote:You can skip something like 9-10 pulls in SP and easily make this run much faster. For the large groups after the big overgrown lobster boss, pull way back and have someone fear if you have crappy other CC options.


Also, what people "know" is going to vary by server, I imagine. I believe I've run Heroic Ramparts once on my main, whereas Slave Pens and Mechanaar and Steamvaults were much more frequent. I'd love to know more about which pulls you can skip, though.

Hmm; let's see if I can enumerate the pulls from memory. Please remind me if I've missed one, or if I can skip any of these. :) (If this is off-topic, I apologize.)

- two bogstrok patrols (In theory, we could skip one, but that seems very risky.)
- slave master to the left of the tunnel
- naga patrol
- slave master to left of tunnel exit
- naga patrol
(run around, dodging other patrols and groups)
- double heavy-hitters (whose names I forget) at mouth of next tunnel
- patrol inside boss's room
- Boss
- patrol at top of boss's ramp
- patrol on one side of ramp (I imagine we could skip the other)
- patrol at upper Y-junction.
(skip patrol, jump in water)
- Naga patrol at left. (Fight near the prisoner, or something)
- pair of naga guards at end of tunnel
- bogstrok group (man, there are a lot of these!)
- large naga group (with fearing spore bat)
- Boss
- naga patrol. (I forget, do we get the second large group before pulling this?)
- another large naga group
(skip the next, run up the ramp into the tunnel.)
- patrol in hallway
- two bogstrok patrols
- pull before Naturalist Bite
- group that spawns after he is released
- Boss

Which looks like 21 pulls, plus bosses. (Unless I miscounted -- also possible) I can think of about eight that I skipped, not counting the bogstrok groups near where the chest spawns.
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Postby spelltank » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:33 pm

Guillex wrote:The one thing that's made heroics a little MORE difficult, IMHO, is the fact that they lowered the requirement from revered to honored.


Another side effect is that some tanks (well, me for one) feel the need to head to heroics ASAP, since they're just so much easier to find groups for. on my server, i can get a heroic group in about 5 mins on my main, yet it takes around half a hour to set up ANY normal lv 70 instance group, partially due to the access of pvp gear, and also due to the fact that u dont need to farm any instances before you get to heroic mode
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Re: New to heroics - my experiences

Postby Marker » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:33 pm

Kelaan wrote:
sapientialb wrote:You can skip something like 9-10 pulls in SP and easily make this run much faster. For the large groups after the big overgrown lobster boss, pull way back and have someone fear if you have crappy other CC options.


Also, what people "know" is going to vary by server, I imagine. I believe I've run Heroic Ramparts once on my main, whereas Slave Pens and Mechanaar and Steamvaults were much more frequent. I'd love to know more about which pulls you can skip, though.

Hmm; let's see if I can enumerate the pulls from memory. Please remind me if I've missed one, or if I can skip any of these. :) (If this is off-topic, I apologize.)

- two bogstrok patrols (In theory, we could skip one, but that seems very risky.)
- slave master to the left of the tunnel
- naga patrol
- slave master to left of tunnel exit
- naga patrol
- ISNT THERE A SLAVEMASTER WITH SLAVES THAT NEEDS TO BE KILLED HERE?
(run around, dodging other patrols and groups)
- double heavy-hitters (whose names I forget) at mouth of next tunnel
- patrol inside boss's room
- Boss
- patrol at top of boss's ramp (CAN BE SKIPPED BY RUNNING ONE WAY WHILE THEY PATROL THE OTHER)
- patrol on one side of ramp (I imagine we could skip the other)
- patrol at upper Y-junction. (SKIPPABLE BY JUMPING DOWN WHILE DEFENDERS ARE FURTHEST AWAY)
(skip patrol, jump in water)
- Naga patrol at left. (Fight near the prisoner, or something) (SKIPPABLE BY JUMPING DOWN WHILE DEFENDERS ARE FURTHEST AWAY)
- pair of naga guards at end of tunnel (SKIPPABLE BY JUMPING DOWN WHILE DEFENDERS ARE FURTHEST AWAY)
- bogstrok group (man, there are a lot of these!)
- large naga group (with fearing spore bat)
- Boss
- naga patrol. (I forget, do we get the second large group before pulling this?)
- another large naga group
(skip the next, run up the ramp into the tunnel.)
- patrol in hallway
- two bogstrok patrols
- pull before Naturalist Bite
- group that spawns after he is released
- Boss

Which looks like 21 pulls, plus bosses. (Unless I miscounted -- also possible) I can think of about eight that I skipped, not counting the bogstrok groups near where the chest spawns.


The main thing you could do is to make the drop from the top of the ramp after Betrayer. I seldom do it though, since one error one by memeber screws you and the time you gained if they drop all the way into the water and have to run back and up. You drop down to the ledge below the bridge where the 2x Defenders patrol. Then you jump off that one to the ledge on the north side of the water. (Easily screwable if people dont know that you have to jump a bit before the wall to aviod hitting the roof). Hard to explain, but you end up just by the side of Rokhmar's cave, fight him, clear the bogstorks and continue on the naga group with 2 tempests, healer and fearing spore bat.
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Re: New to heroics - my experiences

Postby Kelaan » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:22 pm

Marker wrote:- slave master to left of tunnel exit
- naga patrol
- ISNT THERE A SLAVEMASTER WITH SLAVES THAT NEEDS TO BE KILLED HERE?
(run around, dodging other patrols and groups)


If you're referring to the second slave master group which is closest to Rockmar near the "island" (more like a small butte? ;)), where there's a group of bogstroks on your right and a wandering patrol in front of you, you should be able to skip it. We've almost never done the ones which are by the "tree"-like thing, and instead pull the two big guard types towards the water. (I think north is the direction.)

The main thing you could do is to make the drop from the top of the ramp after Betrayer. I seldom do it though, since one error one by memeber screws you and the time you gained if they drop all the way into the water and have to run back and up. You drop down to the ledge below the bridge where the 2x Defenders patrol. Then you jump off that one to the ledge on the north side of the water.


Interesting -- I've never heard of this, but it sounds like this would end up skipping 2 groups. (that said, those pulls aren't particularly hard anyways -- it's the nasty big groups after that and after Rokmar which give me pause.) Do you have a video you can link to that illustrates this jump?
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Postby farmerjohn » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:29 pm

I hate hate hate, absolutely hate that jump. Did I say I hate that jump?


It's not much faster than just going forward, jump into pool, hop on ledge, pull the 3 mob pat, go around corner (quest guy if needed), go down hall, 2 mob pull, go by little mound of dirt, pull the 5 mob pull, get boss, move on. :twisted:

Edit x 4: learn2preview nub :)
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Re: New to heroics - my experiences

Postby Mishdorf » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:17 pm

sapientialb wrote:
Mishdorf wrote:6) Don't start with Slave Pens unless you bring at least 2 CC, preferably 3. Slave Pens has some of the hardest trash in the game and you need to be able to have at least 3 or 4 heroic mobs whacking you at once. Much more managable is Heroic Ramps. Your DPS and healer will know this instance generally a lot better than any of the coilfang instances and the only real hard pulls are succeptible to good CC.


I'd really disagree with this. There are tons of mobs in Ramps that do unfun nasty stuns/knockbacks that can make your life pure hell and several also have a Mortal Strike that will eat you for lunch if your healer is even slightly asleep behind the wheel.

You can skip something like 9-10 pulls in SP and easily make this run much faster. For the large groups after the big overgrown lobster boss, pull way back and have someone fear if you have crappy other CC options.


Even with the skipped pulls in SP, after the 2nd boss nearly every pull is harder than the hardest pulls in ramps.

The hardest pull in ramps is the two destroyers + dog master pull before the first boss. It is the most likely to wipe a group as when you kill the dog master, the dogs that he summons can easily alert the patrol which will kill you all.

Mortal strike is an issue because you take half healing, but the last pulls in SP can quite easily result in a feared or mind-controlled healer meaning no healing at all. For a pala tank I'd definately say that MS is easier to deal with than fear (both can be cleaned with a bubble, but only MS can be managed without it).

Additionally, even if they have never done it in heroic mode before, most players have quite strong experience in ramps, whereas SP tends to be skipped while leveling by many.

I have wiped far more times in H SP than H ramps, and for the most part, H ramps bosses are easier than n ramps bosses when you first do n ramps. H SP bosses tend to be the same or harder in my experience.
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