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Guilds with 2 Kara Teams

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Guilds with 2 Kara Teams

Postby honorshammer » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:29 am

I have a question for people who are in guilds that can field multiple Kara teams. My guild is nearing that point. We have 18 keyed people.

Questions:

1. How do you determine how the groups are formed (who goes in Group 1 and who goes in Group 2)? Obviously class/roll comes into play but you have player skill and gear to take into account as well.

2. How do you keep the two teams from becoming like two guilds operating under the same tabbard?

3. How do you handle people who want to transfer from Group 1 to Group 2?

4. How do you handle it when one Group is further along in progression than the other. This is sure to cause negative feelings in the slower group.



Thank you in advance for you input/experience/advice.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:52 am

each week we form 2 groups depending on who is available.

Make sure both groups are balanced so they can clear kara. Don't have one breeze it and one struggle, as that isn't so good.

And make sure loot will be used. If one group can't use a T4 token its good to swap people in case it drops so that all loot will be used as long as s omeone needs it.
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Postby adese » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:46 am

My guild has handled this a few ways.

Initially, the officers sat down, and came up with two relatively equal teams. Each team had more than 10 people so that if someone couldn't go, that group could still run Kara that week. As needed, the officers could swap unused people that week to fill in a void on the other team.

Eventually, as more people got attuned, the teams became a bit unbalanced (despite our best intentions). This lead to some issues, so now we don't have set teams - we just invite all who are signed up and online, and the Raid Leader splits them up into two equal teams.

We've found that the second way works better than the first. Not only do the officers not need to keep track of who is on what team, adding people, etc., but we can just go on the fly and create balanced teams each week. This also helps more people in the guild playing together, instead of only playing with the same 10-15 people each week.
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Postby Nich » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:22 am

We used to have an 'a' and 'b' team, where it was literally the early raiders who were well geared in the A team, and the rest in the B team to struggle through.

Then we went to inviting everyone to a 40 man raid and sorting out groups and a general pool of people on standby - there were a lot of issues with one raid taking someone on standby who was needed by another team, and so a run had to be called for the week if someone couldn't make it.

We currently have a signup on our guild forums - if you want to go, you post saying so, and if you have any preference on who you're grouped with, and what gear you're after from which bosses. Officers/GM then assign people to teams to maximise loot distribution, and balance classes/roles so every raid is capable of clearing Kara. Each raid has one or two people on dedicated standby, either due to lack of gear (so they can sub in for specific bosses), or because they're overgeared (and can sub in if someone is afk/offline).
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:00 am

Nich - how is the signup method working for you? My guild is getting to the point where we can field 2 Kara runs without alts and I've been considering signups.
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:11 am

We use a signup sheet type deal for our Kara runs:
http://fahrenheitguild.com/raidninja/index.php

What we do is post the Kara schedule for the week, and give everyone until monday afternoon to sign up. Monday night, 2 designated people go through the signups and make as many groups as we can. Some weeks we have 1 group, some weeks we have 3. On average, we have 2 groups every week though. Anyone who signed up, but didn't make a group gets put on an alt list. The main guy who makes the groups keeps track of who went and who didn't show that was supposed to and has some kind of points system to help him balance everyone getting into Kara fairly.

This system has a lot of advantages as it is helpful for those who schedule kara on multiple nights per week, but it is hard to maintain and takes 1-2 hours or one person's time each week to make it happen.

Also note that those who don't make it into a group are free to put together their own run with other people as they can.
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Postby Cimzar » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:03 pm

We just started our second group, and though we are struggling with numbers, it was inevitable until people get used to the 2 groups going per week.

We don't try to make ideal teams, though. We have them run on different days, with a two hour difference in start times. That gives people options on which fits their schedules better. While we tend to have a few people the same in every run, the majority of the group is random from week to week, depending on time contraints. We are a casual guild, though, so that may be why this setup works best for us.

I like the idea of a pool of players in the raid, then dividing from there, but we just don't have the numbers for that yet.
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Postby Maranus » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:54 pm

Our original two karazhan raids were pre-formed based on scheduling. (Some people could raid fri-sat, others tues,sun) The leaders basically ended up taking who ever they felt would create a viable raid, and basically, regular raids were figured out, and each group narrowed down to a consistent 10. Since then, both original raids have been abolished (people have been out gearing karazhan, or grown tired of it) and new ones have been made, lately our raids have been more of a semi-pug status (ie 6-7 regulars and whoever happens to be online on the friends lists or guild)

I honestly don't know if the raid leaders and officers were balancing the raids or drafting, though.

Our guild doesn't refer to it'self as a "raiding guild" we recruit members who we think will create a fun community (they need 3 sponsers, and all that's need to be said is "this guy is cool," "fun guy," etc) though we have a lot of members with their cross hairs set on progress, which really fuels us going forward.
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Postby Nebuchadneza » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:16 pm

We try to run 2 raids into Kara every week full clears. We just check who is online and have a GMOTD saying whats coming up over the next week. (Most people know by now what we are doing on any given night so we don't do forum signups like we used to)

I usually tank the B team and we go a little slower than the A team, even though we do our best to make them as even as possible. That was until I stopped using CC ;) and now it's just bad luck that slows us down on Prince etc. I hate that fight for the randomness :(

I do like the ideas here of a 40man raid setup to check things from Nich, and the website that Jere linked. :) Might look into both and see how much trouble I can cause!! Thanks for the ideas :D
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Postby Nich » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:41 am

Sabindeus wrote:Nich - how is the signup method working for you? My guild is getting to the point where we can field 2 Kara runs without alts and I've been considering signups.

It works pretty well, from my POV - the obvious issues are: people saying they can go, and then not turning up on the night; people on standby crying if they don't get in (especially if someone who didn't sign up is taken for the run), etc.

Actually, the single biggest issue for us - keep in mind we tend to field between 2 and 4 Kara runs per week - is the lack of geared people, or people who're new to the instance. Between alts, raiders who barely ever raid due to scheduling, and 'non-raiders' who are basically friends of people in the guild and thus may not be geared, skilled, or good for much of anything... we have a few people who get frustrated with the lack of progress on some fights, generally from people making the same mistakes over and over again.

The other hurdle, TBH, is making sure there's someone in each group who can disenchant loot that rots.

Forum signups are fine, tho' if you can get a module working on your eqdkp page, I believe it can help with signups in a more efficient manner.


As far as the mechanics go, it's the same as most here - on Wednesday morning, the GM lists the raid schedule for the week. On Friday afternoon, the Kara groups are made from whoever's signed up by that point, and there's a few hours (usually 4 or 5) before the raids commence, where you can get last minute group changes implemented.

Manual signups are fine, if you have people willing to put in the manual work to organise it.
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Postby Cames » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:33 am

We run 2 Karazhan Teams. Our guild is US wide and we run a West Coast Team and an East Coast Team (our foreign members Australia, UK and Israel are split based on which time works best for them).

We tend to do the "small instance" 25 mans in a small overlap (Gruul & Mags) time during the week (7PM - 8PM Pacific).

Large instance 25 mans (TK SSC) are weekend things for us.

Hybrids are greatly appreciated. My guild has geared me as both a tank and a healer and I respec as necessary. They help defray those costs, so it is no big deal to me. Some members view me as a loot sponge, but they want to raid so it is only a small irritation (there are a couple of other folks in a similar boat - so I am not unique).

I also have a raiding alt that we use if we are short of that class for some reason. My guild leader is GREATLY appreciative of the flexibility that this brings to the guild.

If you looked at my armory at this exact second, I am Holy - and probably will be until about 8PM Pacific when I will likely need to tank Karazhan. Then I will be Prot. So, this morning I dumped my DPS gear into the bank and have my healing gear and my tanking gear on me.

So, we don't have many of the issues other than your "two guilds" thing. 25 mans solve that issue mostly. Both teams have completely cleared Karazhan, at this point we race to see who can do it fastest. We also have a contest on the fastest downing of Maiden of Virtue (2 minutes 14 seconds is our record to date). One good thing for us, is that a core has been together since EQ and we have members that have "known" each other for 6 years. The bulk of the guild went to EQ2 first, but dropped that last year and we just cleared ZG when TBC came out. So, we stopped raiding, leveled up and have moved to TBC raiding.
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Postby dern » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:12 am

We run two groups 1 night a week, then fill out the clean up work later in the week when no raid is scheduled. The only consistency so far is that our main warrior tank and I are never in the same group.

Also, I always get the dwarf preist if the other tank in my group is not a warrior.

Other than that we rotate members between groups and keep it mixed up. Just before we started 2 Kara groups we had completed our first full clear (ok not Nethersprite) and added about 8 members from another guild. We thought it best to avoid cliques by rotating people around as much as possible.

While this proves frustrating occassionally (only 2 interrupts on Shade last night and some healers fairly new to event:/ and some bad luck on prince meant we fell short of our goals for the evening. It happens, but there is no A team B team mentality which is something our guild chose to avoid. We had the advantage of 2 groups that had basically cleared the place already though.

We make one large raid split it into 4 parties, we always have extra dps if they didn't recently sit out there are volunteers to sit or /100 to decide who goes. Usually someone will switch in if there is a specific boss drop they want.
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Postby Lore » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 am

When we were running 2 Karazhan groups for a while, we had one early evening group and one late night group. Each group had a basic core of 5-6 people that was always there - a couple tanks and healers, and a solid DPS'er or two - and then whoever else showed up for the raid time they preferred. That left generally 4-5 extra spots that could be filled by whoever, which made swapping people between groups fairly easy when necessary.
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Postby Daedallus » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:57 am

Posts such as this remind me that i hate blizzards implementation of TBC. kahrazan has killed so many guilds and friendships by making a 10 man zone the gateway to other content. the drama involved in taking your first 10 "best" players in one group, or trying to spread them out, or excluding people, or even having people just left by the wayside because your guild only sports 3-4 true tanks or has not enough healers makes me angry.

Like it or not, pre-tbc, your guild needed say, 15 really good players in key roles, and then 25 people that could get along by doing mostly what they were told at the right times. Now you need 10 people doing everything right to progress through kara, and this creates cliques and sub guilds and all manner of foolishness as those people pick and choose from you player pool.

I love the idea of 10 man content, but making it prequesite for 25 man content is asking for trouble. especially for guilds just starting thier their progression.

blah, sorry, old rant.
just still burns me.
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Postby Lore » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:05 am

If you have enough people to run a 25-man raid, you have enough people to run 2 or 3 Karazhan groups. IMO the only guilds that are "killed" by having 10-man content before 25-man content are the ones who are unwilling to put in the necessary effort -- which is required to progress in 25-man content anyway. If you can't get 20 people to work together, how are you going to do it with 25?
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