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Diamond Threat Meter

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Postby Elvidnir » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:37 am

"But we're casual" isn't a valid excuse not to use something as basic and essential as a threat meter, imo. It's ONE addon. If they can't make the time to update a single addon (3 minutes, max), I don't see any reason they should be raiding.

DPSing isn't something you should be doing by the seat of your pants.
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Postby Wyleai » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:04 am

dab wrote:You can inspect people talents ingame now.

If add-ons have access to it (and I'm pretty much sure they do) there is no more guessing involved.


Inspecting talents is not the same thing as having a dump of their combat logs and the parts therin that go to threat generation.
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Postby Wyleai » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:11 am

Endus wrote:And on that, I'm seeing a lot of "just use Omen, regardless" commentary. C'mon guys, I'd expect some of you to at least TRY Diamond first. It may be junk, but a couple of my members said it works great. So I'm trying it, and since there wasn't a thread on it here, I figured I'd mention it to start a discussion and get a wider sampling of opinions. It's possible DTM is inferior. But I'd like to see that be tested, rather than just assumed.


I'd just want to see a detailed explanation of how DTM can have reliable results without the others using it as well, from the author.

If (s)he's put up such a thing, I'll go read it, and if I think it makes since, consider it.

One thing though, I'm not sure I want to be a raid with someone who isn't running a working threat meter on their machine. The data isn't just to keep me on top of my game after all.

So even if I were to try DTM, it'd be from a POV of "everyone in the guild who wants to raid has to install the newest version of DTM."

Why not let them choose which one to run? Because if anyone is still on Omen, then that person will be missing data from the other members. Everyone needs to be on the same page, be it Omen, KTH, or DTM.

A side effect of Omen needing the others to have it to get data from them is that it makes it easy to put pressure on guildies to go and get it. And once they have it the data it will show on their screen will effect how they play for the better.

So I'd almost want to say, as soon as DTM requires everyone in a group have it, I'll consider trying it.
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Postby Mindrak » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:25 pm

Wyleai wrote:
dab wrote:You can inspect people talents ingame now.

If add-ons have access to it (and I'm pretty much sure they do) there is no more guessing involved.


Inspecting talents is not the same thing as having a dump of their combat logs and the parts therin that go to threat generation.


I thought 2.4 gave you the equivalent to a dump of their combat logs and the parts therin that go to threat generation.

With talents, combat log, and knowing what mobs are in combat with them, what is it missing to give accurate data?
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:17 pm

Endus wrote:My point was that rather than this comparatively complicated solution you present, If DTM works as it says, I can just use that, and even if a couple people in the raid don't have the right/any version, it'll track their threat anyway.


I'd argue that if people aren't using a threat meter, it won't help YOU to know their threat -- as they won't have the tools to know when to back off and stop DPS. (Short of you yelling at them in Vent, that is.) For anyone that's not a tank, almost the only reason to use a threat meter is to be able to stay under the tank. (OK, proactive tauntage when people are getting close to overtaking you is also good... but that should be an exception not the rule, right?)
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:29 pm

Wyleai wrote:Inspecting talents is not the same thing as having a dump of their combat logs and the parts therin that go to threat generation.


You should have all that information in your own combat logas long as you've got the log radius set high enough.
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Postby Wyleai » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:34 pm

To agree with Kaleen's last comment there, and add my own spin...

After 2.4 our guild MT decided he didn't need a threat meter anymore because he didn't want to keep downloading Omen patches.

This first meant that the rest of had no idea how our threat compared to his. So to keep us off of him, he did things like put the healers into a different raid group. For that was personally very frustrating - a druid loses about 20%, if not more, of her healing power by not being in the same group as her primary healing targets due to the way tree form work.

We made it through our Kara run fairly well, but we could have done a -lot- better. We were running 'blind' and we could feel it in the group dynamic.


Back before I myself started using Omen (because well, I 'know how to play' and don't need some silly addon telling me where to stand :D ), to be honest, I took aggro on my resto druid a -LOT- more often than I do now.

Getting my healer to stop getting one-shot in instances was a three step process.

One: speccing that threat reduction talent that the Druid forums claimed was useless. yeah... disagree there.
Two: Getting better tanks that knew how to keep aggro and paid attention to mobs that moved away from them.

Three: getting a threat meter. And this was the really big final capping point. I started noticing consciously everywhere I was playing like a 'noob' because my screen would start flashing red. First thing I learned was why, second thing I learned was to get myself even further from threat than the addon was calling for - but I didn't learn that skill until the AddOn first enabled me to become aware of the problem.

Omen helped me learn the difference between a bad tank and a bad healer that couldn't stop stealing aggro. Both exist, but without Omen its just a he said/she said as to which one caused the problem in any given situation. Omen took the excuses away from me and any tanks I was healing for.

In a raid, or even a well done 5-person instance, everyone should have a working threat meter.

Maybe 2.4 does give everyone in the fight access to everything relevant from everyone else's combat log. I have my doubts, but maybe it does. If it does, Diamond could work for the person using it.

But it still allows for a major problem - it allows other people in the group to "get away" without having a threat meter.

With Omen requiring the others to have a meter, I have a lot of 'social weight' I can apply in demanding they go download it.

Nobody accepts when you tell them they need to 'learn to play.' So telling them to get a meter so they can learn to play puts them on the defensive. Telling them to get a meter so you can get the data from them you need so you can avoid being a noob makes it look like they're doing it to help you be better, and that's a lot easier to argue to people. You're pretending to be self-deprecating. People will accept that you are not perfect, but they rarely accept you telling them they are not perfect. :)
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