Brutallus and taunting

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Lore » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:35 pm

With 3/3 Precision you only need 95 hit rating to make taunt unresistable.

With 0/3 Precision you need 142.

I'm not sure where the 200+ number came from but it's incorrect. I'm pretty close to unresistable in just my regular mitigation set.

EDIT: Oh, and if you've got a Balance druid with imp FF in the raid (and many guilds use Balance druids for this fight), that's another 3% you don't have to worry about. So you'd only need 48 hit rating at that point, which is easy.
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Postby Eliane » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:08 pm

I have 66 melee hit and I have never missed a taunt on Brutallus.
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Postby Rhî » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:20 pm

Lore wrote:With 3/3 Precision you only need 95 hit rating to make taunt unresistable.

With 0/3 Precision you need 142.

I'm not sure where the 200+ number came from but it's incorrect. I'm pretty close to unresistable in just my regular mitigation set.

EDIT: Oh, and if you've got a Balance druid with imp FF in the raid (and many guilds use Balance druids for this fight), that's another 3% you don't have to worry about. So you'd only need 48 hit rating at that point, which is easy.


Although Taunt is now affected by melee hit, the basemiss is still 17% like a cast, including 1% miss, that you can not negate by melee hit.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:21 pm

Rhî wrote:
Lore wrote:With 3/3 Precision you only need 95 hit rating to make taunt unresistable.

With 0/3 Precision you need 142.

I'm not sure where the 200+ number came from but it's incorrect. I'm pretty close to unresistable in just my regular mitigation set.

EDIT: Oh, and if you've got a Balance druid with imp FF in the raid (and many guilds use Balance druids for this fight), that's another 3% you don't have to worry about. So you'd only need 48 hit rating at that point, which is easy.


Although Taunt is now affected by melee hit, the basemiss is still 17% like a cast, including 1% miss, that you can not negate by melee hit.

This is completely wrong.
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Postby Lore » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:34 pm

Yeah I have never missed a taunt while having 9% hit since the change, I would think if it still had 17% miss I would have seen at least one
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Postby divinituss » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:44 pm

Honestly thats why i feel proud to be a paladin tank.

There are many encounters that isn't paladin tank friendly but we still work around it. From nightbane to archimonde to ROS and now brutallus, we somehow manage to do it our way.
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Postby Rhî » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:30 am

From EJ-Forum:
I can't seem to let this go for some reason, so did a third round of tests. This time I did my testing on Bloodlord Mandokir to make sure that High Priest Venoxis wasn't a special case. Other than a change in the mob it was the same test setup as last time, with my hit rating at 215, 13.63% on the character sheet.

Taunted 1441 times
Successful 1404 times
Resisted 37 times
For a miss rate of 2.57%.

Combining the two tests done at 215 hit rating gives the overall result of:

Taunted 2332 times
Successful 2268 times
Resisted 64 times
For a miss rate of 2.74%.

This gives an observed base miss rate of 16.37%. Given the sample size and the fact that two separate mobs produced the results I think it's safe to say that taunt follows the same base miss rate as spells do, at least versus level 73 mobs. I see no reason why Blizzard would modify the rest of the table, so it should look like:
vs. 70: 4% (64 rating to cap)
vs. 71: 5% (79 rating to cap)
vs. 72: 6% (95 rating to cap)
vs. 73: 17% (269 rating to cap)

Assuming that is the case, the various anecdotal resists reported from people with high hit ratings on trash mobs (70 - 72) seems to indicate that there is a 1% miss rate that can't be overcome. Testing this for sure would mean gearing up to more than 270 hit rating, and taunting a boss mob until one resist was seen. I may try this some time this weekend, just to finish this up for good.


source: http://elitistjerks.com/591884-post71.html
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Postby fiorina » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:55 am

That's a weird analyze. Why don't he taunt with 0 hit rating to see if it is 17%?
Also that post is older than prostitution. Which patch it was changed to melee hit?
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Postby Rhî » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:16 am

fiorina wrote:That's a weird analyze. Why don't he taunt with 0 hit rating to see if it is 17%?
Also that post is older than prostitution. Which patch it was changed to melee hit?


Old. but true. Spell Hit to Melee Hit-Change was Patch 2.3. ZA-Patch (Novemeber 07?). And this tests (January 08 ) were after Patch 2.3. Nothing changed since then.
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Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:15 am

fiorina wrote:That's a weird analyze. Why don't he taunt with 0 hit rating to see if it is 17%?


The point of that test in particular was to prove that you miss a taunt even while hit capped (to see if it acts like a spell)

My own theory is, that while they changed taunt to have melee hit lower miss chance - spell hit never stopped working.
It's hard to do such tests as paladin as we can't just keep taunting a target like druids and warriors do.
I am however trying to do a similar test on a warrior with spell hit gear.
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Postby Neuron » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:52 am

Brutalus' Burn ability temporarily sets his current target to the player that gains the Burn aura, then resets his current target to the previous target. The duration of this target change is roughly 500ms to 1 second.

If you taunt during this time while targetting brutalus, your taunt aura is applied to the person he temporarily taunted, not the other tank (his previous target).

Somehow then the server logic ignores this, probably to prevent the ability to intercept burn debuffs by using taunt.

Anyways, what happens is, nothing. Your taunt is used, brutalus is still attacking the other tank, and you need to wait 15 seconds before taunting again.

It is difficult to control because of latency issues and how your client is on a different computer than the server, and the algorithms used to synchronize the two. You can tell when burn is about to come, but even if you taunt 1 second after burn the server may still be in the state where he is targetting the burn victim and not the other tank.

To prevent this, you need to wait probably at least two seconds before and two seconds after around the time burn is cast to prevent wasting a precious taunt.

There is probably nothing Blizzard can do to fix this short of changing the mechanics of the Righteous Defense skill entirely.
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Postby Gerilith » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:28 pm

Rhî wrote:From EJ-Forum:

source: http://elitistjerks.com/591884-post71.html

There's Rhîniel, posting my links! ;)


It seems like there would only be the 1% chance left on Brutallus to avoid too many resist-wipes.
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Postby Lore » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:15 am

FWIW, you can BoP the other tank if your taunt gets resisted, so long as it's not too early in the fight.

Tanked him for our progression kill last night, had no survivability or taunting problems.
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Postby Chorus » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:28 pm

Neuron wrote:Brutalus' Burn ability temporarily sets his current target to the player that gains the Burn aura, then resets his current target to the previous target. The duration of this target change is roughly 500ms to 1 second.

If you taunt during this time while targetting brutalus, your taunt aura is applied to the person he temporarily taunted, not the other tank (his previous target).

Somehow then the server logic ignores this, probably to prevent the ability to intercept burn debuffs by using taunt.

Anyways, what happens is, nothing. Your taunt is used, brutalus is still attacking the other tank, and you need to wait 15 seconds before taunting again.

It is difficult to control because of latency issues and how your client is on a different computer than the server, and the algorithms used to synchronize the two. You can tell when burn is about to come, but even if you taunt 1 second after burn the server may still be in the state where he is targetting the burn victim and not the other tank.

To prevent this, you need to wait probably at least two seconds before and two seconds after around the time burn is cast to prevent wasting a precious taunt.

There is probably nothing Blizzard can do to fix this short of changing the mechanics of the Righteous Defense skill entirely.


During one night of attempts I missed a taunt (which I thought was a resist at the time) that caused a wipe due to exactly this. The work around was to simply target the other tank explicitly for RD when I call out on vent that I am about to taunt. Judgement will retarget Brutallus, so it is not that big of a deal once you are aware of it.
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Postby Neuron » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:59 pm

Chorus wrote:The work around was to simply target the other tank explicitly for RD when I call out on vent that I am about to taunt


O.o that's great information to know, worthy of a macro for one encounter perhaps :P
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