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From Holy to Prot: issues from a healer

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From Holy to Prot: issues from a healer

Postby Sylune » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:33 am

Hi to all of you paladins, I'm Sylune from The Venture Co (EU). I've been a Holy paladin for over a year, leveled as holy, pvped as holy, istanced and raided as holy.
Lately i had sencerely enough of healing, a friend linked me a video of Invisusira (Paladin vs Warrior - The Musical) and i had so much fun watching it (several times tbh :P) that i looked for other Invisusira's video.
Well this girl inspired me so i started to read tons of theorycraft about avoidance and damage mitigation, gathered some tanking gear when noone needed it and i started to bother every protection tankadin i see around by running after him and saying "wait a sec, can i inspect you?".

Well, when i finally decided that time had come i respecced (i made a spec similar to your base cookie), tested my avoidance with some aoe pulls on BT's terrace (you know, that kind duellers just outside the istance), all ok, ready to go!

I entered an istance with my guildies who wanted to test my aggro and i discovered i have lot of problems in keeping it (spelldamage was over 400 cause i still had some healing stuff)

Well, after the story there comes my LOT of questions:

1) Abilities ranks: max rank of consacration can help really a lot in keepoing aggro but it run me oom very soon, rank3 help saving mana but i don't make so much aggro... i have to try with rank 4-5 to find the perfect balance or i do wrong somewhere?

2) AGGRO: well, if i'm lucky and noone turns the mob off of me while he is running to me it is still hard to keep aggro, and if i lose is something like impossible to take it back (sometimes i even use RD, the mob turns to me for some fractions of sec then back to another target). Some mates are even telling me that noone have ever told them to wait for the tank taking aggro on normal istances, only on raid bosses and i ask myself why it's so hard for me to build that "huge amount of threat" tankadins are famous to.

3) HP vs Avoidance vs Aggro: i enchanted and socketed my gear to reach as fast as possible the uncrashability except for gloves (where i put 2% more threat) and tried to respect gem colour ('cause socket bonus is really nice to improve a little avoidance) but as i've seen around and on your posts lot of ppl socket and enchant with stamina and hp... you think i have to ignore a little of avaoidance to improve health?

in tanking gear with the usual spec (5 points in anticipation, avenger shield and stamina talents) i am 100% avoidance (with holy shield ofc) and 509 defense...

I'm still gathering cards for the furies deck and i would really have the trinket from MgT. I still got some crap pieces in my gear, like shoulders (lvl 63 from UB bleah!) and a ring i'll replace with violet signet of protector (i don't use it in healing gear, so replacing is better than leaving in a bag slot forever)


My main nightmare on tanking is to keep aggro, having the mobs "glued on me" in every case, even if i get DC (i saw a warrior really doing it at morogrim, he relogged before losing aggro from boss :P)

Lately i talked to a prot paladin who showed me a strange spec that i found awesome: she didn't take avenger shield and ardent defender (and put some less points in one hand expertise) to go down in ret tree and pick up crusade and crusader aura. What do u think about this spec? (she talked me about an easy 1300 TPS on boss fight)

I thank you for even reading all the post and hope someone may have some tips or answer to my questions.

Thank you very much,
Sylune
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Postby Eneroth » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:57 am

Throw up a link to your armory, with your tanking gear. Seems right now your holy. Need to take a look at gear and see what can be done. You have to understand that Holy Shield is your bread and buttery for agro generation till you enter BT/MH instances were you will gain more avoidence from dodge and parry.

As for not taking Ardent Defender, I don't even know what to say to that. Not only is it 10% more stamina once you get below 35% health you take 30% less damage. That talent is a must. And the same is for Avenger Shield, hell that is how I pull bosses to have a ton of threat from the start. Hell I used to start a ton of my pulls in instances with this as well, because of the distance and the threat. Those talents are needed if you are looking to be any type of tankadin.

But without taking a closer look at your gear it's hard to say. I never had any issues holding agro even when my gear was blue.
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Postby Soltyr » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:01 am

First all.
Invisusira is just continuing to test what was supposed to be the next hero class. Basically a 2h tank/heal class able to summon pets (kitty) for the Alliance side. For the Horde it was the DK, a 2h tank/dps class able to summon undead. After so many complains for the faction-based hero class, blizzard has decided to keep one only hero class for both factions: the DK.



ok, joking aparts... :)

Tanking is not something you learn just after a few days. It can take a while to get some confidence with the new role, new ability, and also know the other dps class, how they work. Reading this forum, you can learn a lot of tips, ofc.

Regarding the point 1.
Common ConsRank are 1, 4 and Max. Depending of the situation, mana and threat (I sudgest you to start with the max rank and then downranking if necessary).

Regarding point 2.
Almost all DpSer's have a native ego. Be sure you have RF up and they have BoS. Then focus/assist dps on you current target. For AoEr's it doesn't matter, as paladin you are pretty able to hold a whole pack from the healer/AoEr threat.
An important note is the content you are going to tank. If you are outgearing it a lot (and it is not that strange in 5men even heroic), you are going to be OOM so much because the poor dmg taken = no mana = no threat. Be sure you are full mana bar b4 the pull and if necessary downrank some item, or keep a few pieces with stam/int/spelldmg gear. Sometime I use Healing Plate to tank 5men trash too ;)
On raid boss you should be able to hold threat with your max hp/avoidance gear.

Regarding point 3.
It depends from the level of the content.
Maybe if you post your prot gear/armory-link I'm sure other ppl can say to you better advise (atm the armory is showing your holy spec/gear).


BTW, I repeat It can be just a time matter and practice to know how to tank with a prot paladin for you and also for your healer/dper, getting confidence with the spell-rotation and improving tanking skill.
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Re: From Holy to Prot: issues from a healer

Postby Arcand » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:15 am

Sylune wrote:1) Abilities ranks: max rank of consacration can help really a lot in keepoing aggro but it run me oom very soon, rank3 help saving mana but i don't make so much aggro... i have to try with rank 4-5 to find the perfect balance or i do wrong somewhere?


This is a tough question because the answer depends on your spell
damage, your DPSers' gear, how you're pulling and how patient everyone
is. I have ranks 1, 4 and 6 on my hotbar and generally start with 6 then
downrank when I'm confident I have things under control.

Coasting at the end of a fight is easy. Playing catch-up is hard.

If you're running OOM within a pull, take more damage. Change your
aura from Devotion to Retribution, switch out some high-mitigation armor
for pieces with more spell damage, or just pull more bad guys. :)

2) AGGRO: well, if i'm lucky and noone turns the mob off of me while he is running to me it is still hard to keep aggro


Are you pulling with Avenger's Shield, opening with JoR on the first kill
target and then max-rank Consecration?

Some mates are even telling me that noone have ever told them to wait for the tank taking aggro on normal istances


This is just bizarre; warriors and bears need much more time than we do
to secure aggro on a pull. The person who said this is experiencing a
reality very different from mine. I suggest you avoid grouping with him,
and consider the possibility that he is insane.

you think i have to ignore a little of avaoidance to improve health?


Go for avoidance until you're uncrushable; after that you can start piling
on health. Piling on health makes you a 'mitigation tank' or an 'effective-
health tank', which is the simplest way to improve your survivability
against raid bosses.

For a different perspective on improving your survivability, look for
Joanadark's essay on 'avoidance as damage spreading'. I think her
analysis is flawed but she's switched-on enough that the ideas are worth
considering; you'll probably learn stuff just reading it.


Lately i talked to a prot paladin who showed me a strange spec that i found awesome: she didn't take avenger shield and ardent defender (and put some less points in one hand expertise) to go down in ret tree and pick up crusade and crusader aura. What do u think about this spec? (she talked me about an easy 1300 TPS on boss fight)


...just before she got her block knocked off? :)

I'm sure her threat is excellent. But losing ranged burst threat and
Ardent Defender? She's going to be significantly weaker on fights we're
supposed to be great at. She won't take Hyjal packs as easily, she won't
pick up Leotheras the Blind as smoothly, stuff like that. Maybe her gear
is insane so that survival is not an issue and all she cares about is
maxing her threat on Illidan farm runs, I don't know. But consider that -
a spec that works for someone in tier 6 will work differently (quite
possibly worse) for someone starting Karazhan.
Last edited by Arcand on Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pizbit » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:40 am

I rarely downrank to be honest, only in situations like the final boss in H-Shattered where I use rank 4 I think it is to collect the adds, don't take enough damage for max rank and I'm only trying to out do healing threat anyway.
5man trash and bosses do not crush. Aim for reasonable avoidance(45%+ is good, gonna guess you're around that) and HP.
Stick with the cookie cutter spec, it's cookie cutter for a reason.

And yeah I once DC'd in shattered halls and came back to find myself still tanking every mob in the pull, friend told me I tanked better when DC'd. :?

I'll toss in a typical pull for ya:
Salv *all* DPS.

Mark skull
Mark X
Tell dps to kill skull then x
Prep SoR
Avengers Shield skull
HolyShield, consecrate, JoR, SoR
Rinse & repeat the last 4

When skull is dead you can usually lay off the consecrate mana hog. DPS *should* be able to open up 1-2 seconds after a mob has reached you.
Because by this time the mob has: Been hit by AS, JoR and is taking consecrate ticks and SoR damage plus HS procs.

When you're more confident and it's a 4 pull, AS skull and JoR the 4th mob instead and have AoE open up when they get to you. :)

If you're still unsure, take a healing friend with you to an instance and just practice doing the pulls then running out of the instance, get a feel for your threat rotation and the pull itself.


Always check you have RF up.!@!@ :)
Last edited by Pizbit on Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pizbit » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:43 am

Oh, I'll toss this in.

I find tanking to be like a dance, it has it's own rythm. Once you get in to it and it becomes second nature you're home free with first prize. But until then everyone mocks you and you go home early in tears.

Find your rythm and you've become the best tank you'll ever be.
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Postby Ozball » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:08 am

Pizbit wrote:Oh, I'll toss this in.

I find tanking to be like a dance, it has it's own rythm. Once you get in to it and it becomes second nature you're home free with first prize. But until then everyone mocks you and you go home early in tears.

Find your rythm and you've become the best tank you'll ever be.


^-- what he said. I only respecced to prot from holy myself about 3 weeks ago and it does take some practice to get in the rythem (hell my spell rotaion still sucks), but just keep at it! And poke around these forums :) a wealth of information here.
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Postby Sylune » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:47 am

Thank you very much for replies, i'll mind on all. Armory still show me as holy cause i respec about 2-3 times a week forward and back to holy (can't go on arenas as protection), so it's difficult to tell when i'll be protadin on armory. I can post you my gear with all gems and enchants but i don't want to bother you in going to look every single piece of gear on wowhead, so i'll keep in mind your suggestions and try to manage myself.

Just one more question: since i got 489 def without taking anticipation, you think i have to not take the talent and stay with my gems or take the talents and start to socket with stamina while trashing defense gems?

Thank you very much,
Sylune
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Postby Wakeman » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:02 am

Sylune wrote:take the talents and start to socket with stamina while trashing defense gems


This.
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Postby Mastus » Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:11 pm

As was already mentioned earlier in this post you will just have to trudge your way through 5 mans to learn how to effectively tank as a paladin, but its not hard and it won't take you too long. Without knowing your gear heres still a few pointers that may help:

1)Don't start with PuGs, run with dps that know you are still learning to tank and they will be more willing to hold back dps and forgive mistakes.

2)You don't have to mark every target, but mark the first kill target. Paladins have great AoE threat, but there is still one target thats getting the brunt of our damage done to it. That way the dps isn't pulling off targets that you aren't focusing on.

3)I know this sounds strange but if you are running oom you are taking too LITTLE damage. Try replacing a few pieces with spell damage/healing items. You will have a bigger mana pool and more spell damage from it.

4)If you are concerned about losing aggro downraking is out of the question. Downranking has its uses, but if you are still learning how to tank and running oom either refer to #3 or bring along some mana pots.

Hope these help you out a bit :D
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