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Trash waves and loot

Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal, Azgalor, Archimonde

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Trash waves and loot

Postby Paksennarion » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:52 pm

Question for the folks in Hyjal.

I'm part of a raiding community on silver hand that just had it's first raiding group break into Hyjal, and there's currently a debate going on how to manage trash loot in the instance.

Basically, it's a whisper-bid system with multiple different tiers of bid. Top tier is "Shroud", if you bid this and you have the most points of all the Shroud bidders, you get the item at a cost of half your total points. Next tier is Standard, and everyone who bids Standard is asked to /roll 100; highest roll gets the item for 10 points. Bottom tier is Save, also 10 points but is a "give it to me instead of DEing it" tier.

The problem is, points are per-character, and earned over time. (2 for on-time, 1 for raid complete, 1 per half hour of raid time.) They're also transferrable between Charters (the individual raid groups), so raiders can sign up for any of the groups without losing points. The current group that just got into Hyjal doesn't believe that they can manage to process loot in the normal manner during the trash waves, and they want to change the system to use the Blizzard roller, with "Shroud" being a Need roll, and Standard/Save being Greed roll.

This makes sense to just about everyone, but there's concern that we'll get the "new raider with badge gear and 20 points beating the veteran raider with 200 points" problem cropping up more and more. A suggestion was to place a time limit on trash wave need/greed of a month or two, but some are saying that this is basically impossible.

So, to make a long story not any longer, how did all of you handle the trash loot in Hyjal when you were first progressing through, and when did you change back to your normal system, if you didn't use it all the way?

Any guidance on this would be extremely helpful. Thanks for reading. :)
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Postby Arianne » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:51 pm

We have anyone who wants a trash drop put their name on a list then we update the order of the list based on their zsDKP standings at the beginning of a raid.

There's enough time between waves generally for your people to loot things without having it on group loot if you have a predefined order. Your DKP system doesn't really seem to give preference to 'veteran' people unless they bid 'Shroud' so just make a list of the people that would bid 'Shroud' on an item and order it before the raids based on DKP. If there are no 'Shroud' bids, then do a /random and have whoever wins pick it up.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:17 pm

Regular master looting, the RL is usually a DPS or the Warrior MT (who slacks on trash). Who needs says need, dkp check, assign, next.
Usually assignment comes when there's a "calm" situation.
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Postby Zyxa » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:29 pm

The loot stays for quite a long time, pretty sure we've had 8th wave loot still be there after the boss is dead. Just use someone not required for the tanking/healing to organise the distribution and you shouldn't need to change your normal methods. Even if you do lose something its not actually the end of the world, as stuff drops so frequently that most people who want a trash drop will have it long before they've got their t6 etc.
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Postby Paksennarion » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:44 pm

I like the list idea, not sure how well that will play out though.

The problem is too that we're all learning still - we've got maybe 30-35 raiders attuned so far, out of a general raiding pool of over 400 raiders. So not only are we looking at how bad people want it, but we're doing so with somewhat unpredictable raid composition and while learning everything that goes on in there.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:48 am

Paksennarion wrote: a general raiding pool of over 400 raiders.

WAT
I hope it's a typo O.o
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Postby sanctifico » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:10 am

We, now use a Zero sum loot system, highest dkp who needs an item gets it (using the guilds loot chan)

Also, its down to the player to find the item themselves because its on group loot with "all pass" as the general consensis.

Usually this is all happening while im tanking the next trash wave ^^
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Postby knaughty » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:10 am

Worldie wrote:
Paksennarion wrote: a general raiding pool of over 400 raiders.

WAT
I hope it's a typo O.o


Given the guild has 33 level 70s, and 86 members.... typo.
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Postby NarfJones » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:46 am

That sounds like an overly complicated loot system. I never understood whisper bidding. I'm curious of the problems just a regular DKP system presents that you would need something like that.
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Postby Paksennarion » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:09 pm

Not a typo.

This is a raiding community I'm referring to, not a raiding guild. The difference being individuals from dozens and dozens of guilds can and do sign up and raid regularly. Last count, Leftovers was pushing 435 raiders, and that's a couple weeks old. I know at least three people that have started raiding with them since that figure came out, and it's based on active players, not characters.

Think of it like a Raid alliance without it being guild-based.

The reason for the system is to allow veterans priority on their loot without locking anyone out of being able to get something. They take a rather perverse pride in the statement "Welcome to Leftovers, here are your epics". My first run with them was on my warlock, and she walked out with the offhand from Magtheridon. The system actually works extremely well.

At present, the one charter that's doing Hyjal seems to think a list would be overly complicated - I'm not sure how, given that there's a max of 10-12 trash items in there, and nobody will want all of them - but that's the way he runs it. At present though, we're looking to lay out something established for when the other charters get into Hyjal either by downing Vashj and Kael, or with 2.4, so that they've got a guideline established for how to go about it. The end goal is to revert to the normal loot system once Hyjal trash becomes old-hat, but in the meantime it's either ignore all trash epics and let them rot or come up with an alternate, hence why I was asking how all of you handled it.

Thanks a bunch for the great feedback guys, it's really going to help us out.
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Postby Sophos » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:23 pm

We just switch the looting to group loot, have people Pass on the Mark of the Illidari and Heart of Darkness, and have them click need if an item drops. If they win the roll, we deduct 75 dkp from them.

Bidding took too long and items despawned or people died because someone was busy looting/bidding. :P This system is not perfect, sometimes someone gets away with a free mark of the illidari or heart of darkness, but noone really cares. :) The actual items haven't had a mistake occur yet so far.
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Postby Dazhbog » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:23 am

Worldie wrote:
Paksennarion wrote: a general raiding pool of over 400 raiders.

WAT
I hope it's a typo O.o


Not a typo. Hiya Paks =D

The raiding alliance Paks is talking about is Leftovers, on Silver Hand; Paks and I are two of the higher profile paladin tanks. The alliance is split into multiple charter groups (call them raid groups, if you want), and although no one is forced to stay within one charter, most tend to be "regulars" with a particular charter, normally due to scheduling constraints.

The LO loot system sounds overly complicated, but in practice it isn't, and is by far the best system I've seen, especially considering it has to deal with 400+ raiders spread across the spectrum from Gruul/Mags to Hyjal (points are split between 10 and 25 man instances; no charter group is in BT quite yet). The problem with Hyjal trash is speed, and the points clause that points are deducted when an item is purchased, and gained at raid end. The trick, then, is to keep running totals during the raid, as raiders bid on the lower tiers of save/standard (-10 points) or the higher shroud tier (-one half of the raider's total points).

My personal favorite solution is the raiders checking their point totals before raid start, and keeping track of their own, whispering the ML with their total as well as their bid. However, this opens up the system to attempted cheating (e.g. shroud - 52 million), so the ML still needs to check the points page, thereby negating any speed gained. I hate to say I distrust any of my crew, but in an organization as large as LO, things can happen, and WILL happen if not taken care of/avoided.

Another of my favorite solutions is simply run loot the same way, but faster; item is announced, raiders have 5-10 seconds to bid, maximum, and bidding is closed, loot sent to winner, NEXT. This puts the strain on the ML, who needs to keep point totals, but I think given a piece of paper and a good eraser, it wouldn't be THAT bad. Loot can be entered into the system (point totals are recorded on the LO site) post raid, or during breaks between trash + boss events.
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Postby Dazhbog » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:27 am

NarfJones wrote:That sounds like an overly complicated loot system. I never understood whisper bidding. I'm curious of the problems just a regular DKP system presents that you would need something like that.


Double post. Sorry >.>

The LO system is a result of the simply MASSIVE pool of raiders to draw from. With the number of points entering the system, previous DKP rules ran into terrible, terrible inflation problems, which led to a small number of people ending up with a majority of the loot. The current system is used to combat inflation via a prioritized bid system, where the highest priority bid eats up a full half of your current points. Further, points are awarded per time spent on the raid, not per boss or per loot dropped.

All of this acts to reward those who put time into the organization, and reward them equally, spreading loot out across the raiding pool rather then just to a few specific members. Regular DKP systems work just fine for smaller organizations, but not so much when you're managing 400+ different people.
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Postby ehly » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:42 am

We have been a raid point or 'dkp' guild for quite awhile, honestly ever since loot arugments back in ZG :D This has been the best for our guild. A search of the web can show you tons of different ways to us point systems. Ours is a very simple straight forwards flat point system.

A few months ago I overhauled our point system to switch it to make it more compatable with an ace mod, as our old point mod was no longer supported. The Bidder mod, which is based of dkpmon mod.

We have found this mod to be very friendly for us, especially on trash in MH. The ML goes up gets the loot while the next wave is inc. I just make sure to pull them back a little to the side so as not to pull right ontop of him. If there is an epic, the mod puts up a little loot popup box in everyones UI. What the items is and what it costs. If you don't want it close it and forget it. If you want it click it and close it. Takes almost no time away from the raid.

That said...I have been killed by no less than 3 'PePe' cloaks as the heals pause a second to make sure it is not realy the healing cloak..we have yet to every get drop.

Before hand we had a time based system, but went more simple in the updated system. If a system is inflated then generally that means cost is too low. For us the only players that are inflated in points are the warlocks...who have had nothing good to replace shadowweave with until t6 content.
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Postby LordoftheLeftHand » Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:47 pm

Just a piece of advise. Some times for different reasons it's hard to get the piece of loot to the actual winner. If this happens, let it rot and have the raid leader petition the gm, they will award it to the person in question. BTW they can tell if you let it rot or not.

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