How hard could it be...?

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Postby Stos » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:52 pm

Tyaera wrote:
Pillar wrote:ive got 11.2k hp, 13k armor, 483 defense, 200 sp- althought this is still a problem holding aggro sometimes. will be getting the major spellpower to weapon soon (saving up for it), then can change out the spellpower gems.

is holding aggro harder when you don't have the major spellpower enchant, or am i just running with people extremely well geared?

and can i tank it without having 490 defense?


you should have no problems holding aggro

I run with a fully kara-geared shadowpriest, who has everything he wants from Kara, rocking about 1200 shadow damage, and I have no troubles keeping aggro off him.

I think it may be your skill rotation causing aggro issues, not spell damage.


I find this hard to believe having a shadow priest myself at slightly under that gear level. Are they going all out or holding back a lot to keep from over-aggroing? If he has 1200 shadow damage he can probably easily sustain over 900 tps on boss fights with salv and without vamp embrace. If he goes all out and uses vamp embrace it's probably 1200+ tps. How are you doing that with 200 SD?

If it's truly possible to sustain 1200+tps on a boss fight with 200 SD please tell me what I'm doing wrong. I'm around 300SD and the only time I see around those numbers is while AW is on and I can exorcise, full rotation, etc. On trash I can't even hope to get close as I'll run out of mana long before the fight ends. I'm lucky if I sustain 500 tps there.

I usually find with my spriest that tanks doing around 500-600 tps I no longer bother with stat food or oil or flasks or trinkets and I don't use VE and don't cast mind blast or SW:Death all to keep from pulling aggro and I still ride the edge with Omen. This is usually without salv though so it's probably possible to do a bit more with it. And before you ask yes I have the reduced shadow damage aggro talents although I don't have subtlety on my cloak yet.

-Stos
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Postby Exodius » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:33 am

Rashakal wrote:And also, the flesh beast's metal greaves is from the escort quest in Mana Tombs, i'm sure you could quickly and easily gather a group of 65's and clear threw it pretty fast and pick up those boots.


It can be hard to convince people to stay around for the escort quests. Level 65s aren't as focused as they use to be.

What I did was demand that it be run as soon as we got up to it, before the final boss left. As I tended to be making the run a cakewalk, groups would agree to this. If they wanted to pike, then I would not stay for the final boss.

Just be clear and forceful. Far too many wimps wiggled out of this once the last boss was dead.
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Postby Exodius » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:47 am

Stos wrote:I find this hard to believe having a shadow priest myself at slightly under that gear level. Are they going all out or holding back a lot to keep from over-aggroing? If he has 1200 shadow damage he can probably easily sustain over 900 tps on boss fights with salv and without vamp embrace. If he goes all out and uses vamp embrace it's probably 1200+ tps. How are you doing that with 200 SD?

If it's truly possible to sustain 1200+tps on a boss fight with 200 SD please tell me what I'm doing wrong. I'm around 300SD and the only time I see around those numbers is while AW is on and I can exorcise, full rotation, etc. On trash I can't even hope to get close as I'll run out of mana long before the fight ends. I'm lucky if I sustain 500 tps there.

I usually find with my spriest that tanks doing around 500-600 tps I no longer bother with stat food or oil or flasks or trinkets and I don't use VE and don't cast mind blast or SW:Death all to keep from pulling aggro and I still ride the edge with Omen. This is usually without salv though so it's probably possible to do a bit more with it. And before you ask yes I have the reduced shadow damage aggro talents although I don't have subtlety on my cloak yet.

-Stos


I am not an expert on shadow priest spell rotation or their specific threat management.

Salv reduces threat output by 30%. Being at range (and you should be out of melee range as a priest unless the fight calls for it) means you need 130% threat before you pull.

Improved righteous fury boosts aggro from holy spells by 190%. Consider the fact that a mob is being hit by a melee hit, a seal of righteousness, a judgement of righteousness (when it's up), a holy shield when it gets blocked, a consercration, the inital AS, plus perhaps retribution aura and blessings of sanctuary, and you will find that 200 spell damage goes very, very high.

If a paladin really wants to pump it out, they judge seal of crusader and add avenging wrath into the rotation.

The initial list I mentioned, for the normal rotation spell damage has a partial co-efficient for 5 of the 6 things hitting it. It all adds up.

As I said, I don't fully understand Shadow priest rotation, but all dps classes should be watching their threat, and most of them may have to hold back. You could always wait a few seconds to let threat build up before going all out, if that's a big problem, or not do a full damage rotation yourself. :?

1200 tps on a non demon/undead mob with only 200 spell damage does sound high though, but I would have no trouble believing up to 600 tps if they are doing full rotations. :?
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Postby Pillar » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 am

just wanted to say thanks for the help/advice. I have improved my gear with some of that listed in the last week.

- Spaulders of the Righteous dropped for me first time I ran Bot. Was very happy.in addition to defense gained (i had pvp shoulders up to this point, this also gave me set piece for the righteous armor, meaning 15% less cost of consecration
- Saved up and bought mats for Bracers of the Green Fortress, and paid someone to make it for me. Very pleased, especially once i got it enchanted with +12 stamina
- swapped out my contiuum blade for crystalforged sword, and added spell damage enchant to it.
- enchanted shield with +18 stamina

now at 494 defense, 11.8k unbuffed hp. very happy!
Last edited by Pillar on Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Stos » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:38 pm

Exodius wrote:I am not an expert on shadow priest spell rotation or their specific threat management.

Salv reduces threat output by 30%. Being at range (and you should be out of melee range as a priest unless the fight calls for it) means you need 130% threat before you pull.

Improved righteous fury boosts aggro from holy spells by 190%. Consider the fact that a mob is being hit by a melee hit, a seal of righteousness, a judgement of righteousness (when it's up), a holy shield when it gets blocked, a consercration, the inital AS, plus perhaps retribution aura and blessings of sanctuary, and you will find that 200 spell damage goes very, very high.

If a paladin really wants to pump it out, they judge seal of crusader and add avenging wrath into the rotation.

The initial list I mentioned, for the normal rotation spell damage has a partial co-efficient for 5 of the 6 things hitting it. It all adds up.

As I said, I don't fully understand Shadow priest rotation, but all dps classes should be watching their threat, and most of them may have to hold back. You could always wait a few seconds to let threat build up before going all out, if that's a big problem, or not do a full damage rotation yourself. :?

1200 tps on a non demon/undead mob with only 200 spell damage does sound high though, but I would have no trouble believing up to 600 tps if they are doing full rotations. :?


I think my post came out a bit more harsh than I intended. I'm not saying 200 SD is bad or low or whatever. I just think it's unlikely you can hold out against the kind of DPS you're talking about. They're just being good DPS'ers and holding back to prevent pulling aggro, but this limits the raid in ways as well.

It's kind of a weird problem. It seems that for whatever reason Blizzard has decided that when you get a caster to level 70 you can immediately or almost immediately push yourself to close to tier 5 gear without even stepping into a heroic or raid. I know my spriest is in at least 6 crafted epics (FSW + spellstrike + dagger) most of which are better than anything available until around tier 6. By contrast you get to 70 as a tank and you need to do multiple runs of heroics and kara and get high rep with various factions, etc. to get even close to that level of gear. The only craftable items I've found worth getting were the engineering goggles, the green fortress bracers and the boots of the protector with blacksmithing. Of these only the goggles strike me as tier 5+.

Right now I run with around 350 SD buffed and usually see my threat around 700-900 TPS on bosses that are exorcisable with a full rotation and judging crusader, spiking over 1300 when I pop AW. This is usually enough that most of the DPS I run with is ok without salv and doesn't have to hold back too much. It would be close holding aggro from my spriest though even with salv. With 150 less SD I don't think it would be even close.

I guess as usual YMMV. I agree that 200 SD is a nice place to start Kara.
-Stos
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Postby Bettiepage » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:22 pm

My first Heroic was Slave Pens, I had about ~175ish Spelldamage, 10.5k Stam and ~6k mana at the time. Your DPS members need to hold back on opening up so you have enough agg/threat lead on the mobs. I have run SP 5 times and saved enough Badges of Justace to get the Librum (the name escapes me atm), now I am stepping it up to Underbog, Ramps and Steamvaults in the same day.
As said before, most of the time it is your group make up that can make or brake your run. I like having 2 forms of CC, Mage Sheep/Pig and either Hunter for Frost Trap or Rogue for Sap. I had a rude awakening when I tried Heroic Mech when it was the daily. I did fine untill the Defenders. Nobody but me could Inturrupt the charged fists, so I got my face smashed in. It was very frustrating, and one of the grp members told me I needed more Epics. :cry:
So, my advice would be to start small, run the normal Dungeons for the drop gear as posted in the Gear forum stickies, then try for the easy heroics, you may have to do them over and over again until you are so sick of them you have to run them again to get the required badges for the items you want and get that Defense rating or that Stamina level you desire for the next level of heroics (maybe even Kara?). Best of luck to you, Cheers.
I am the arm of the Light in battle. I know my path, can you say the same?
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Postby Arcand » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:29 pm

Exodius wrote:What I did was demand that it be run as soon as we got up to it, before the final boss left. As I tended to be making the run a cakewalk, groups would agree to this. If they wanted to pike, then I would not stay for the final boss.

Just be clear and forceful. Far too many wimps wiggled out of this once the last boss was dead.


Point out that patrols will be respawning pretty soon so the sooner you do the escort the safer it'll be. This may even be true, depending how the run has been going.
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