Am I wrong to ask the tank to get 490 def b4 anything else?

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Postby Swagger » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:35 pm

Guillex wrote:
Sweeney wrote:And honestly, I don't think gearing for uncrushability (or even *towards* uncrushability) is necessary for a normal 5-man. It'll eventually happen just because your pieces all either have block or avoidance, but it's not a priority.


Different strokes fo' different folks!


I'm really not comfortable with you talking about stroking anyone
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Postby sbeacher » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:42 pm

I tanked with a Diamond-Core Sledgemace for way longer than I care to admit (I was lvl 70 for a little while before I replaced it)
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Postby Worldie » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:33 pm

My second tankadin replaced the sword from SP normal with the continuum blade as soon as she dinged 70. I was already revered with KoT since i tanked so many BM and OH.
Getting crits and crushes from last boss of BM wasn't fun but i had pro healers :P
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Postby redlenses » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:41 pm

Being uncrittable is very important as well as HP, Threat and Avoidance/Mitigation.

5.4% above base crit avoidance as well as good threat, not some defense number is the right checkbox to verify for heroics if you are going to have some simple cirteria checkbox IMO.

i.e. I'd rather have a tank that is uncrittable and has high threat than one that has 485 or 490 Defense. Since the defense doesn't matter much if the tank can't hold aggro. Really high avoidance stats and uncrittable would also be more important to me than 485 defense. May be a subtle point, but worth mentioning.

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=6750
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Postby guillex » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:46 pm

redlenses wrote:Being uncrittable is very important as well as HP, Threat and Avoidance/Mitigation.

5.4% above base crit avoidance as well as good threat, not some defense number is the right checkbox to verify for heroics if you are going to have some simple cirteria checkbox IMO.

i.e. I'd rather have a tank that is uncrittable and has high threat than one that has 485 or 490 Defense. Since the defense doesn't matter much if the tank can't hold aggro. Really high avoidance stats and uncrittable would also be more important to me than 485 defense. May be a subtle point, but worth mentioning.

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=6750


...

uncrittable = 485 defense to a level 72 mob.

Sooooooo ... What are you trying to say?

Also, people, I never said it was a requirement to be uncrushable in a regular instance. I just said that the higher the better, because before raiding, BLOCK RATING IS THE EASIEST STAT TO STACK for uncrushability, which is something that's amazing for 5mans. You could be 25% crushable or 2% crushable, it doesn't matter. Defense does.

You all need to stop singling out one thing, lmao.
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Postby redlenses » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:58 pm

Guillex wrote:http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=6750

...

uncrittable = 485 defense to a level 72 mob.

Sooooooo ... What are you trying to say?

...


You all need to stop singling out one thing, lmao.


Did you read the thread I referenced?
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Postby guillex » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:39 pm

That I did.

But I was talking about the misinformation in your post, is all. The combat table is quite well documented, along with what is pushed off first, and what level of defense is needed to be uncrittable.

Read your post over again, you just might see what I mean.
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Postby lusisia » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:53 pm

Nazi.

Godwin's Law

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Postby guillex » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:54 pm

lusisia wrote:Nazi.

Godwin's Law

G'Night!


Oh thank god. Errr, Hitler. Errr, Lusisia!
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Postby redlenses » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:07 pm

Guillex wrote:That I did.

But I was talking about the misinformation in your post, is all. The combat table is quite well documented, along with what is pushed off first, and what level of defense is needed to be uncrittable.

Read your post over again, you just might see what I mean.


Again don't know what you are referring to. A Tank with the Gladiator's Gavel and Gladiator's Shield Wall can do great in Heroics and be uncrittable with less than 485 defense, so using that one stat to qualify or diqualify a tank is a view based on misinformation...

Uncrittable in Heroics is 5.4% above base crit avoidance which is based on Defense and Resilience, not just defense. A tank with 485 Defense and little spell damage is not going to be as effective as one that is uncrittable, has spell damage, and mitigation / avoidance all of which you can do without having 485 Defense.
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Postby Paksennarion » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:10 am

You sir are missing the point.

The point is, the OP wanted to know whether to advise the tank that focusing on 490 Defense first is a good idea.

I could see where you're going with resilience, except for a few things:

1. Said tank has Sun Eater as their only epic, and are decked in blues/greens, some of which are +damage items rather than mitigation items.

2. What you're pointing out is fine for a tank lead looking at another tank and evaluating their ability to stand to and do the job. It is not fine for a healer who's trying to figure out what the hell uncrushable means and why this tank with 430 Defense is taking way too much damage in spikes.

3. Not everyone PvPs, for one, and for another even if you do PvP, you should be pushing for 490 defense anyways. Defense is quite honestly the most useful stat for a tank overall because you do get so much mileage from it. Miss, Block, Dodge, Parry, and crit reduction. All of it is needed, and while an argument can be made that there are cheaper itemization setups than defense past 490, it's not only a common stat, it's still a highly functional one. Any decent tank is going to push for 490 defense regardless, because they want all the other stuff that comes with it. It's therefore useful as a meterstick for judging a tank. If they're below that level but trying to work on it, it's a whole different story, especially if they're up front and honest about it, and otherwise seem to have their head together.

I've healed a 430 def tank in regular Botanica. I had an easier time healing a blue-and-green warrior in Heroic SP, because he had 485+ defense. Nothing will help with your survivability like defense will, and factoring for Resilience is going to nerf your other avoidance and mitigation.
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Postby Levantine » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:57 am

If anyone says 'you're missing the point' again on this board, I'm going to lock myself in the Asylum and usurp positions of power.
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Postby Exodius » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:15 am

Not every paladin with more points in protection than any other tree would understand the subtleties of defence and being uncrittable.

I remember one guild I was talking to asking my what my resilience was when I was already uncrittable but working on uncrushable for Kara.

I replied that I did not need resilence as my defence was high enough. This was new information for the person I was speaking to though...

...and they were a paladin tank.

Not everyone automatically gets it without a whole lot of theorycrafting. The tooltips will tell you how much extra avoidance your defence gets, but it won't tell you how uncrittable you are. No where in the game itself - barring add ons, does it say:

"WARNING! CRITTABLE PERSON! GET MORE DEFENCE AND/OR RESILIENCE OR YOU HAVE A CHANCE OF TAKING DOUBLE DAMAGE HITS FROM MOBS!"

It's true the resilence tooltips will tell how much crit you avoid - but again, without theorycrafting, it's hard to know how much is enough, especially when you combine it with defence gear. :?

My apologies for the caps, but I am trying to make a point. As a general rule, I would as a healer ask a tank what their defence is, and then say they should get more if they are too low as that could help prevent big spikes that can kill them and wipe the group.

Being even more specific to the OP, it's likely the paladin tank was holy, won the sun-eater, and decided to go Prot to put it to good use. That would explain the poor itemisation and lack of defensive gear.

Please try and remember that paladin tanking stats are by no means obvious. We need a lot of different stats for a lot of different reasons, and there is no easy answer as to the "best stats" at any one point.

I would say as a rough guide though, get 485-490 defence, then get 10k health unbuffed, then get more avoidance until you are uncrushable, then get more health. That's how I use to think and it's gotten me pretty far. :D
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Postby guillex » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:51 am

Levantine wrote:If anyone says 'you're missing the point' again on this board, I'm going to lock myself in the Asylum and usurp positions of power.


But you're missing the point!
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Postby Mortiran » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:38 pm

simply put the priorities in 5 mans should be

1. 485 defense (mobs in 5mans will crit you if you dont have it)
2. Maximize HP
3. Avoidance (while bosses in 5mans can not crush you they will hit you more if you have low avoidance).

Do not feel bad about requiring 485 defense from your tank if you are doing one the harder instances
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