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How to get Guild into Karazhan?

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Postby Blowhole » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:00 am

Ulushnar wrote:If People aren't gonna be motivated to do that, then go somewhere where people are.


This is the best piece of advice in the whole thread.

You really can't get people motivated to do PvE if it's not their thing to do. If you have forums and post a topic about it and get no response it's time to move on. I understand not wanting to leave because of all the hard work you've put in... but understand that you're talking about putting in even more time and effort into getting this Karazhan thing going and you may still end up short.

If I were in your shoes (and I don't understand the entire situation) here is what I'd do -

*Talk to the GM or officers. I'd ask why are we getting all these people keyed and not doing Kara at all? They probably won't have a good reason, they just don't want to do it.

*Start threads on your guild forums asking about interest in Karazhan. I'd point to the fact that I have never once seen someone go to their first raid and not thoroughly have a good time when they see their first boss kill.

*I'd also be doing an "underground" Kara campaign by PST'ing people in the guild and chatting with them about their stance on it. Or if someone says something in Party chat or Guild chat about needing an upgrade for a piece, chime in with "You know Attunmen in Kara drops an upgrade to that gear and he's easier than a heroic boss." I wouldn't go so far as bring up Kara in every sentence, since I feel people should want to do it or not, but I would make sure everyone knows I'm on board to MT it.

The thing about raiding is it takes other people to get you to succeed. If these guys don't care about being there and you do get them to go, you might still be disappointed at the end of the day. These are the guys that won't enchant their gear, get the best gems, bring consumables, run heroics on off days, and overall benefit the group as a whole. So I'd be weary of what you wish for... these guys might eventually go to Kara but still not care if Bosses die and that is the worst feeling. It's like going to work and knowing that someone gets paid just as much as you for doing half the work. It sucks.
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Postby Nemuria » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:20 am

It s right, maybe I am trying to get people where they don't want to be.

I have talked openly about it and it's likely one part wants to play (the true leaders) while another part doesn't actually like the game (the GM and people in charge).
A father of a high end guild member joined us and expressed the same concern (we did is KZ attunement with his son's help). He talked about the 25 badges and asked why no run where scheduled. No response.
The GM started talking shit about WoTLK, the gear reset at level 80, like if it was for tomorrow. Hints me she doesn't want to schedule another raid. Maybe Midnight killed all that remains her fun in WoW.
One casual guild that is starting a 2nd group, so I am going to apply there.
(this advice has won the top reply)
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Postby Base » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:32 am

Yeah it's a shame but if you want to do kara (and more) and the guild doesn't want to you have 2 choices: Not do kara or go elsewhere.

If you go elsewhere - make it clear it's nothing personal - explain to everyone the reason you are leaving (don't blame anyone though). Keep people on friends lists and explain that you still want to do runs with them.

I had to move servers to find a suitable guild doing what I wanted to do, it meant leaving behind a lot of friends, but it was the only way to do it.

GL with whatever you go for.
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Postby Blowhole » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:41 am

Nemuria wrote:It s right, maybe I am trying to get people where they don't want to be.

I have talked openly about it and it's likely one part wants to play (the true leaders) while another part doesn't actually like the game (the GM and people in charge).
A father of a high end guild member joined us and expressed the same concern (we did is KZ attunement with his son's help). He talked about the 25 badges and asked why no run where scheduled. No response.
The GM started talking shit about WoTLK, the gear reset at level 80, like if it was for tomorrow. Hints me she doesn't want to schedule another raid. Maybe Midnight killed all that remains her fun in WoW.
One casual guild that is starting a 2nd group, so I am going to apply there.
(this advice has won the top reply)


That's unfortunate that people think that way. I've had this game for 3 years now, and I got TBC the first day it was out and I just stepped foot into Karazhan with my friends 2 weeks ago.

When I was at GameStop the guy behind the counter said something like November for WotLK, which is 8 months away and that's if they don't push it back even further. Even if they decided to release it when Warhammer is "supposed" to come out (for competition purposes), that's still 3-4 months away. You're talking something like 120 days of just doing nothing because "eventually" something will come out? It's a shame people like that run a guild.
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Postby Holyfuri » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:49 am

I have been involved in running a family guild, trying to get kara together from that point, and in running a raiding guild in kara trying to move on to gruul's/SSC. I have also been involved in a couple T5 raiding guilds, casual and hardcore.

The fact is that trying to motivate people to do things that they might not have thought about doing before or didn't plan on doing is rough. This is common in family guilds. Everyone has fun leveling then when everyone gets to 70 half the people want to pvp, the other half want to to pve, and a percentage just want to farm and level more alts until the expansion.

The issue is that you all shared a common goal leveling, and now you don't. At best you can take the few people in the family guild that want to do karazhan and find more people through recruitment/alliances/pugs to do karazhan and maybe Gruul's. That is about as far as you will get though. It's disappointing but true.

The fact is, to do anything past T4 content you need a solid community and solid players that have at least some idea of what they are doing.

In conclusion, you have to decide what you want to do. You can't convince people that don't want to do kara to do it. You can either stay with your friends and pug kara in some way, and do that until the expansion or find a guild that is a raiding guild, where you will find everyone with the same goal again.

Personally I was in this dilemma at one time myself, and I went to a raiding guild. My friends from the old guild are still friends, we just don't raid together because our goals are different now.
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Postby Nemuria » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:44 am

Hey this thread is still running.
It makes me think most part of the problem is KZ now being outdated. Let's say it was just like getting people to ZG when level 60 and Burning Crusade was coming. The raiding community is now in t5-t6 and soon Sunwell. It is just difficult now to find a raiding guild who is still at T4 level or starting SSC.
Would it prevent any fresh tanks to gear up and get experience? It is up to each ppl to decide where to go, and I hope the answers would help tankadins having to face the choice "where to go for raiding?" (especially because our class is not always well accepted)
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Postby uke » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:50 am

As an update to my original post in this thread:

We FINALLY got the guild into Kara this past weekend, partnering up with a "sister guild" we like to run with with a few other non-guild friends to fill in the gaps, including a very well geared holy pally that acted as raid leader.

On our first night, we one-shotted Attumen (though we wiped on the trash a couple times), made it to Moroes, but just couldn't bring him down.

Second night, we swapped in some different dps in, and after a few wipes, finally brought him down! He dropped a really nice tanking belt, but the other tank in the group won the roll for it :? . Oh well, it was a fair roll, and I'm sure I'll get it eventually.

Problem I'm facing now is that there are two very vocal members in my guild that 1. have severe self-confidence/esteem issues 2. have no real clue what they're doing and 3. while they want to be able to do Kara, take EXTREME offense (we're talking bordering on silly here) to *any* suggestions/constructive criticism as to how to actually get to where they need to be. This is further complicated by the fact that the guild leader is friends with them and is split between trying to placate/coddle them and accept the fact that the rest of the guild is suffering because of them.

I talked with one of our fellow guild officers yesterday, who was letting me know that they took a lot of offense the first night when I suggested that one of them stop being the only stubborn person to not get on vent, to the point where the two of them almost /gquit yesterday from it. I explained that I said nothing offensive, but they took offense at any suggestion.

I'm beginning to think that they just feel so bad that they don't know what they're doing, but they just can't mentally handle having to act on it and freak out when someone tries to get them going. I swear, it's like dealing with children.

The other officer I spoke to yesterday actually took my side, agreeing that the whole thing is just really dumb but he doesn't have much control over it. I'm an officer myself who's been there just as long and, quite frankly, I haven't left much room for debate about my abilities. He also mentioned that he wouldn't have any hard feelings if I ended up looking for a more progressive guild, as he's seen the hard work I've put into my character and he knows that I'm itching to push myself further.

I figure I'll give it another week and see how it goes, as well as talking with my GM as to her take. If she continues to coddle them, hampering the rest of our's progress, it may be time to make a clean break for somewhere else.
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Postby Nemuria » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:07 am

I am sticking in the little guild just aiming to collect bagdes for 2.4 and on. Hoping to reach the requirements to enter a raiding guild later. It will take me at least 3 months. KZ will be just optional.

As the others said don't put to much effort in general raiding while you know most members are not up to it. The most dedicated players are in higher content now...we just have to take the best of everything (you did KZ and downed Moroes etc..)

They don't want to progress because they don't have to. While being a tank you have to MT something and being good at it. I started to realize that and changed my gearing strategy.

In practice
-not aiming uncrushability immediately (bye bye easy Libram). 95-98% avoidance is not that bad.
-just staying uncrit against level 72 boss (485 def). Knowing it is easy to go +490 by swapping items.
-maximizing spell damage (aiming 300+) from enchant and heroics items
-maximizing stamina/armor (aiming 13K HP, 14K armor unbuffed) from heroics,gems and enchants.

So in about 3 months I would "outgear" heroics and get to KZ only to complete avoidance,T4 or trinkets. Darkmoon card Vengeance would also be up by this time (3 cards missing!)
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Postby 2ndNin » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:19 am

Pug it.

I started pugging Karazhan, find a guild that needs a tank, get in on some runs, even if you aren't considered for loot its badges and experience, and most of the time there are only 2 tanks, most guilds even if you are a pugger will let you take it before an offspec. Once you have the experience you can do it, maybe get a few friends and pug with them, treat it a bit like a heroic but with 10 people. You will wipe a lot, but thats half the point, you don't get experience reading bosskillers, you get experience seeing the fight and working at it. Once people see you in there you might find an upsurge of interest, happened to us with ZA, I pulled together runs, and suddenly more and more people wanted to go.
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Postby Nemuria » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:50 am

Just to a last point to the story, the gm and officers announced they are going to leave the guild. They are waiting one week if someone wants to get the lead before going /gdisband.

We went once again to Kara I thought it was on a good way and everybody was expecting the next encounter. We've even recruited a well geared warrior. They didn't give any reason on why they stop, I will see IG this evening.

Not really a problem for me as I was puging and puging (with the odds we all know). I am just sad they didn't do enough effort for their own guild since the start.
Btw I tanked Maiden and saw what Silence mean beyond what said in the thread :D
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Postby Verb » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:04 am

Nemuria wrote:Btw I tanked Maiden and saw what Silence mean beyond what said in the thread :D
I let the bear tank maiden, because I am lazy and good at dispels :(

I'd take the advice of everyone else. If you want to go to kara, but your guild has "omg gear reset"-itis, find a new guild.
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Postby Hierax » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:43 am

This topic more than any other is my situation to a tee.

I'm an officer in a family guild - which enjoys leveling and PvP - but does not seem to want to challenge and go past that. Some folks think because they are 70 means they are ready for anything - heroics/kara etc - and I get a lot of grief in my chase for Uncrushable - w/o the ability of the guild to do Heroics and badges. I guess as a Pally tank- we have a longer slog than standard DPS to get ready for Kara.

So - I myself finally hit 14.4k hps 15.1k AC , doing nothing other than grinding SSO rep, smithing up some items etc... To get uncrush - I throw on a ShieldBlock enchanted shield to get me over the threshold until such time I have the Libram.

Anyhow - I probably will be PuG'ing Kara - and hoping to start seeing some Heroic work - but I hear everyone on this thread - it's tough to convince folks to do Kara when "lvl 80 will make things easier" just wait..../ug
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Postby Ariashley » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:29 am

Nemuria wrote:The GM started talking shit about WoTLK, the gear reset at level 80, like if it was for tomorrow. Hints me she doesn't want to schedule another raid. Maybe Midnight killed all that remains her fun in WoW.
One casual guild that is starting a 2nd group, so I am going to apply there.
(this advice has won the top reply)


Sometimes you just can't resolve the philosophical/play style differences between yourself and the GM of your guild. It frustrated me and made raids really not fun at all. People expected to be invited to a raid based on asking first (as opposed to being prepared) and usually were. The GM did not lead.

I applied to a few other guilds and joined the one I'm in now, where I knew a few people. It's a little rough to adapt to the culture of a new guild. I went from one where swearing too much or being mean to people would get you yelled at or gkicked and at least 50% of the members were women (like me). My new guild was one where people plot to assassinate people in the Horde with Alliance players, set-up ambushes, get stupid people who PUG into groups to delete their characters, BoP the tank on the last 1% health to kill off the top DPS in the raid, and say very little that doesn't include swearing. There are a total of four or five women in the guild, altogether (out of 95). However, the GM is one of the most fair people I've ever met (though very hardass), progression is the primary focus, and people show up for raids, on time, and prepared. I have a lot more fun.
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Ariashley - Level 70 Rogue
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