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Some questions about BT...

Naj'entus, Supremus, Akama, Gorefiend, Gurtogg Bloodboil, RoS, Sharaz, Council, Illidan

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Some questions about BT...

Postby Loganb1104 » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:55 am

I know this is definitely dependent on a lot of things (guild mechanics, etc), but I had a few questions regarding Black Temple. My guild is on its second serious night in there, we're 2/9 (would be 3/9 but we ran short on time) and just about to start the "harder" bosses. What I'd like to know:

1. In your opinion, which boss fights are the most difficult to learn for guilds new to BT?

2. Which boss fights are the most difficult to execute after the strategy is already learned? (I'm thinking along the lines of Vashj, where even though we have the strategy down pat, there are still inevitable wipes due to one or two people forgetting their jobs.)

3. We have an awesome prot pally who has been vital to our success. We went 4/5 in MH on our first real week in there and it's largely due to his presence. How much of a role will he be able to play in Black Temple, other than just throwing on healing gear or getting subbed out after trash?

Any info you veterans could provide would be much appreciated. It'll be nice to know what we're up against.
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Postby Moraus » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:21 am

Answers,

1. RoS + Boil are a pain in the ass for people to grasp tbh.

2. Hardest strat to execute in there imho is bloodboil from a tank's PoV.

3. Aside from trash, your pally is notably able to

Supremus becuase of faster threat and pickup
Teron because he wont threatcap the dps meaning he goes down faster
Akama tanking sides of adds is lolmode for him
Bloodboil (notably easier for an alliance than horde with SoV imo)
RoS p1 is easier and p3 there is NO reason pally shouldn't tank (see the thread for reasons)
Council just as any tank can tank it i think rogue is favoured
I heard a pally is easier to heal than a warrior or bear but im not sure, no reason they cant soak lashes though.
Depending on your gearing and style, illidan MT or flames if hes got capped FR.


At collage now so brief reply, hope it helps.
Last edited by Moraus on Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bryne » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:23 am

1. Gurtogg will likely give you the most trouble as you clear through the rest of BT. The other fights are very strategy-dependent, but 100% reproducible - there should really be no surprises on Teron or RoS at all - but there's a definite element of luck to the BB fight sometimes. Illidari Council can also take some fidgeting with your strategy to get just right.

2. One person forgetting to move or an unlucky spike on a cloth-wearer will give you fits on Gurtogg even after you've learned it. Every other fight in there is 100% execution.

3. You're definitely not as useful as in MH, but if you're a solid offtank, a prot paladin will have no issues filling that role in BT when it's needed (Supremus, Akama, Gurtogg, RoS, Mother, Council, Illidan). There's a bit of AoE trash as well but not as much as in MH.
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Postby Warrender » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:30 am

Nowadays, everyone in our raid is pretty pro at handling Teron's constructs but I remember painful times when invariably "that guy" would be marked for death.

It depends on the depth of your tanking corps how much tanking your tankadin will actually do in BT. But if he's sufficiently geared and skilled, there's no reason for him not to tank in every encounter in BT.
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Postby Questioner » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:34 am

Fights I am involved in tanking in BT:
Supremus
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Reliquary of Souls P1 & P3
Shade of Akama
Mother Sharaz
Illidari Council (rogue)
Illidan (flame)

I generally heal on Najentus, but I tanked it this week.
I dispel on Teron. We found it better to have someone dedicated to it.

We only bring 3 specced tanks for the whole instance (PW, PP, Feral). Your prot pally is perfectly capable of being one of those 3. Considering we've been in BT just over a month on a 3 day raid schedule and have one nighted every boss except Gurtogg Bloodboil...I highly doubt I am holding us back in any way. :D
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Postby Lieris » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:02 am

Priests or mages getting fel rage on Bloodboil make me cry irl, they get it a lot and it seems pretty random whether or not the healers can keep them up. Even when we get him on farm I see this still being an issue.
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Postby Zyxa » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:44 am

My situation is very similar to Questioner's - am a tankadin with a prot warrior and feral druid, and am the least kitted of the 3 having swapped to paladin late on.

I tend to heal on Najentus, tank or off-tank on Supremus, tank a side on Akama, do dispells on Gorefiend, tank on RoS [not p2 obv], tank/off-tank on Bloodboil, off-tank on Mother, tank rogue on Council and tank flames on Illidan. Obviously plenty of the trash is AOE friendly too, so I play a key role there. In summary there is plenty for a tankadin to do in Hyjal, on all encounters.

I'd say RoS and Gorefiend are probably hardest to learn pre-Illidan. We had problems with interupts of spirit shock on RoS; make sure you have interupt teams, there is a deaden mod to reduce the chance of them interupting deaden, ensure you have Curse of Tongues. Gorefiend can take a while to learn if people can't cope with the ghosts - there is a Flash Game which is kinda handy for learning the ghosts, but is harder than the real thing.

The hardest fights to repeat are probably Gorefiend [due to the ghosts] and Bloodboil. Bloodboil can get tricky if you get say a cloth wearer with fel rage at the same time a couple of tanks have a high stack of dots for whatever reason. We generally bring in an extra healer for Bloodboil onwards.
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Postby Drak » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:01 am

Bloodboil was the most "difficult" for me. It took several tries to actually get a feel for how the tank rotation works, and it's different for each guild. You really have to work together with the other tanks and watch your threat and theirs as well. However, after killing him 3 times, it's not very hard at all.

I can't say about RoS yet because my RL felt DPS was too low to bring me in (even though he agrees tankadins are best for p3, we were struggling to kill p2 in time with me there) and opted to bring another dps in my place, but RoS only took us two nights of attempts to kill. The hardest part of that fight is getting the p1 rotations down perfectly so everyone is alive for p2. Also, from what I heard on vent, interrupting in p2 needs to be perfect, because as soon as our MT took a spirit shock or whatever its called, dps got killed and then they couldn't make the timer.

Also, mother shaz can be a bit of a problem is you're scraping by on SR gear like we were. People can't be lazy on FA with only 250-300 buffed SR.
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Re: Some questions about BT...

Postby Morganim » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:44 pm

Loganb1104 wrote:I know this is definitely dependent on a lot of things (guild mechanics, etc), but I had a few questions regarding Black Temple. My guild is on its second serious night in there, we're 2/9 (would be 3/9 but we ran short on time) and just about to start the "harder" bosses. What I'd like to know:

1. In your opinion, which boss fights are the most difficult to learn for guilds new to BT?

2. Which boss fights are the most difficult to execute after the strategy is already learned? (I'm thinking along the lines of Vashj, where even though we have the strategy down pat, there are still inevitable wipes due to one or two people forgetting their jobs.)

3. We have an awesome prot pally who has been vital to our success. We went 4/5 in MH on our first real week in there and it's largely due to his presence. How much of a role will he be able to play in Black Temple, other than just throwing on healing gear or getting subbed out after trash?

Any info you veterans could provide would be much appreciated. It'll be nice to know what we're up against.


1)
Bloodboil. Tanks need to know when to stop generating threat, healers need to heal the fel raged person a lot (especially mage)
RoS. Some guilds struggle on p2 if they have retarded rouges
Council. Same about the rogues + retarded dps who have to stand in aoe to get 1% more dps on the meters.

A lot of fights come down to 'if people dont be idiots it will be fine'

2)
Once again bloodboil as fel rage on only mages isnta fun night, or retards on RoS = wipe

3)
I heal najentus (so does our feral occasionly lol)
Makes supremus easy for pick up
Akama side is easy mode
Teron i decurse which means healers dont have to worry
BB we are fantastic due to being able to bubble off large stacks of dots (saved my guild wiping a few times)
RoS, best tank for p3
Mother, wouldnt main tank, but we OT as well as the ohter 2
Council, we do well on the rogue but cant tank the pally, priest isnt to bad tho.
Illidan, if we MT him we are as good as a warrior, if we are on flames i can usually out tps warriors + druids :P

We really shine on a lot of trash in here as well, even pulls you would single fire down we now aoe just because its faster makes places like mother/teron go much faster
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Postby sanctifico » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:15 am

I pretty much agree with what Morganim said.

As for Illidan, our Warrior MT is passivley uncrushable so i we have him tank Illidan,
Myself and the druid OT take care of the flames (his is killed first because he takes more damage :p)
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Re: Some questions about BT...

Postby Stroja » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:11 am

Loganb1104 wrote:1. In your opinion, which boss fights are the most difficult to learn for guilds new to BT?


Bloodboil, RoS, Council, and Illidan are the only fights in BT that have taken us more than one night to learn.

Loganb1104 wrote:2. Which boss fights are the most difficult to execute after the strategy is already learned? (I'm thinking along the lines of Vashj, where even though we have the strategy down pat, there are still inevitable wipes due to one or two people forgetting their jobs.)


Gorefiend - Countless pointless wipes because one person can't keep their constructs out of the raid.

Bloodboil - Randomness, DPS having to hold back outside of Fel Rage.

Loganb1104 wrote:3. We have an awesome prot pally who has been vital to our success. We went 4/5 in MH on our first real week in there and it's largely due to his presence. How much of a role will he be able to play in Black Temple, other than just throwing on healing gear or getting subbed out after trash?


Naj'entus and Gorefiend are the only single-tank fights in BT - and pallies are quite capable of tanking either. If he's not tanking the boss, the extra healing will be wanted on Naj'entus, and the extra cleanse and (hopefully) competent ghost operator will be valuable for Gorefiend. If your pally isn't in tanking gear for all the other fights, you're gimping your raid.

Smart, competent players are more valuable in the raid than guarding the meeting stone.

As far as trash goes - Shadowmoon Reavers have an AoE mana burn that is somewhat annoying. Ashtongue Primalists and Shadowmoon Houndmasters can't kite a pally (self BoF/Cleanse is guaranteed to annoy the hell out of warriors - quality entertainment, imo). Sisters of Pain - pallies can consecrate tank them without attacking, then res the warrior, three rogues, and hunter that killed themselves (hopefully in time to tank the doomguard that spawns from the warlock that thinks it's funny to CoD himself and lifetap to nothing).
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Postby Splug » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:29 am

1) Gorefiend, Gurtogg, and RoS are the only fights that take more than a few core people learning how to really hold their own, and as such take a bit longer. To some extent, Council is also annoying because it's so long.

2) Depends what you mean. "Random player falling asleep" is lethal on Gorefiend. "General bad luck" can wipe you on Gurtogg phases when clothies get chain-crushed, or on Council when the flamestrike and envenom just happen to land at the same time on 4 priests in a row.

3) Paladin tanks are neither an absolute requirement nor a disadvantage to bring for BT. They help in a few places, they're ill-advised to MT a few bosses, but OT roles are fine in those cases. Ultimately, having three tanks of mixed classes each night is about all that matters, except where p2 RoS does require one warrior tank.

sanctifico wrote:As for Illidan, our Warrior MT is passivley uncrushable so i we have him tank Illidan

I understand Illidan doesn't crush, and since shear doesn't miss you'd have to overkill the passively crush-immune point by quite a bit to be shear-immune. I'm not saying it's a big deal either way, but it is kinda moot; the "worst case" scenario isn't really different via passive crushing immunity, just less likely.

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Postby sanctifico » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:39 am

Splug wrote:
sanctifico wrote:As for Illidan, our Warrior MT is passivley uncrushable so i we have him tank Illidan

I understand Illidan doesn't crush, and since shear doesn't miss you'd have to overkill the passively crush-immune point by quite a bit to be shear-immune. I'm not saying it's a big deal either way, but it is kinda moot; the "worst case" scenario isn't really different via passive crushing immunity, just less likely.
-Splug


I have a 25% chance to take a sheer if i miss HS,
our warrior has a 8% chance if he forgets SB.
Since Miss doesnt work
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Postby Worldie » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:00 am

sanctifico wrote:
Splug wrote:
sanctifico wrote:As for Illidan, our Warrior MT is passivley uncrushable so i we have him tank Illidan

I understand Illidan doesn't crush, and since shear doesn't miss you'd have to overkill the passively crush-immune point by quite a bit to be shear-immune. I'm not saying it's a big deal either way, but it is kinda moot; the "worst case" scenario isn't really different via passive crushing immunity, just less likely.
-Splug


I have a 25% chance to take a sheer if i miss HS,
our warrior has a 8% chance if he forgets SB.
Since Miss doesnt work

Both of you are not supposed to miss that anyway :p
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Postby sanctifico » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:57 am

well ive never had the chance, simply because until recently ive been
undergeared (lol T4 helm still)

Ive never taken a crushing on Anetheron or any of the T5 bosses, but then 3.5:1 on flames, i doubt we'll rotate tank roles until im 4/5T6 with the helm.
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