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Am I wrong to ask the tank to get 490 def b4 anything else?

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Am I wrong to ask the tank to get 490 def b4 anything else?

Postby mangos » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:58 am

So I was healing a normal Bot the other day on my holy pally. My gear are mostly from quest and normal instances, 9k mana, +1100 healing, 13% spell crit. I know it's not much but for normal instances I've healed like all of them except Arc no problem.

I noticed the pally tank with us is using a SunEater, so I said to myself, nice, tank has done heroics so this shouldn't be of any trouble. But what happens next is the otherway around. His hp drops very abruptly from time to time. I had a few near-fail in keeping him up b4 the first boss. So I take a closer look at his gear. You may guessed it, he is in all blues with 2-3 greens. Some are not even tanking gear but spell dmg ones. K I understand that helps build-up threat so not a total waste. But what I cant understand is all the gem slots are filled with +agi/+stm ones, or purely +stm ones. Not even 1 gem with +def. So I asked how many def he is having, and the answer is 430+, but then he emphasize to me he has much more dodge with all those +agi gems and enchants, and it's better overall for mitigation.

I wasn't quite clear about all the tanking stats, but I remember saw this 490def all over the tanking forum. So is it true that +agi provides more damage mitigation than same lvl of +def gem/enchants? Even it is I feel it's more difficult for the healer to handle abrupt hp drop than a more steady predictable hp drop even the later is slightly faster overall.
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Postby Brickhouse » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:20 am

His defense is too low. He does NOT need 490, however. Botanica and Arkatraz, in particular, are harder 5-man normal instances. The mobs in there hit pretty hard, so you would expect any tank there to take more damage.

That said, for normal instances, 460+ defense is sufficient, obviously, more is better =) But, the problem with +490 is a paladin tank will take way less damage, and not get healed enough, thus not get enough mana back, and as a result will have a harder time holding aggro.

That the tank WAS USING the suneater should have tipped you off that he is, in fact, an incompetent fool =) Sure, it comes from a heroic instance, but it is, however, a pathetic paladin tank weapon.

In sum, normal instances 460+ defense is enough, though, probably for Bot and Arkatraz, you will want a tank to have at least 475, since they are tougher. 460 is enough, if they know how to play, and have good dodge, spell damage (to hold aggro), bloc, and parry.
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Postby guillex » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:29 am

Brickhouse wrote:That said, for normal instances, 460+ defense is sufficient, obviously, more is better =) But, the problem with +490 is a paladin tank will take way less damage, and not get healed enough, thus not get enough mana back, and as a result will have a harder time holding aggro.


No. 485 for normal 5mans. And if you're not getting healed enough, pull more. It's that simple.

Brickhouse wrote:That the tank WAS USING the suneater should have tipped you off that he is, in fact, an incompetent fool =) Sure, it comes from a heroic instance, but it is, however, a pathetic paladin tank weapon.


Ok, no. The SE is the best pally mitigation weapon out there. Better than the King's Defender. But you shouldn't be running around with it for regular tanking... It's a phase 2 weapon ... One that you can switch to for more mitigation when you have a threat lead.

Brickhouse wrote:In sum, normal instances 460+ defense is enough, though, probably for Bot and Arkatraz, you will want a tank to have at least 475, since they are tougher. 460 is enough, if they know how to play, and have good dodge, spell damage (to hold aggro), bloc, and parry.


485 defense, and as close to uncrushable as possible. As for spelldamage, a Continuum Blade or Crystalforged Sword with +40 spelldamage on it works, that's all you need. Anything under 485 means you're going to be getting crit by the bosses, and that's NOT a good thing.
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Postby Thanehand » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:46 am

Guillex wrote:
Brickhouse wrote:That said, for normal instances, 460+ defense is sufficient, obviously, more is better =) But, the problem with +490 is a paladin tank will take way less damage, and not get healed enough, thus not get enough mana back, and as a result will have a harder time holding aggro.


No. 485 for normal 5mans. And if you're not getting healed enough, pull more. It's that simple.


True. 485 to be uncritabble in 5mans/heroics. However, it is possibly to do it under this amount if your healer is overgeared, and you are undergeared. (i.e. you can't cope with more mobs, but the healer is outhealing the damage)

Guillex wrote:
Brickhouse wrote:That the tank WAS USING the suneater should have tipped you off that he is, in fact, an incompetent fool =) Sure, it comes from a heroic instance, but it is, however, a pathetic paladin tank weapon.


Ok, no. The SE is the best pally mitigation weapon out there. Better than the King's Defender. But you shouldn't be running around with it for regular tanking... It's a phase 2 weapon ... One that you can switch to for more mitigation when you have a threat lead.


Indeed :D But "Phase 2" in heroics?
EDIT: Re-read Guil's commet. Indeed, not for regular tanking..

Guillex wrote:
Brickhouse wrote:]In sum, normal instances 460+ defense is enough, though, probably for Bot and Arkatraz, you will want a tank to have at least 475, since they are tougher. 460 is enough, if they know how to play, and have good dodge, spell damage (to hold aggro), bloc, and parry.


485 defense, and as close to uncrushable as possible. As for spelldamage, a Continuum Blade or Crystalforged Sword with +40 spelldamage on it works, that's all you need. Anything under 485 means you're going to be getting crit by the bosses, and that's NOT a good thing.


Uncritable = Gooooood.
And I most definantly aggro with Guil on the spelldamage weapon point.

Uncrushable?

From wowwiki: "When the attacking mob has 15 or more points of weapon skill above the player's base defense there is a chance of being struck by a crushing blow"

Player can only put lvl*5 defence against a crush, meaning a lvl 70 can only put 350 pts of Defence to mitigate a crush.

If the moob has to be 15 pts of WS higher, and WS = moblvl *5, then

lvl 71 mob = 355
lvl 72 mob = 360
lvl 73 mob = 370 (can crush)

Only boss lvl mobs can crush, and nothing in a 5man/heroic should be able to crush you.

Certainly the tank needs a certain level of mitigation, but not necassarily uncrushable. (I started heroics with only about 40% mitigation, pre-HS, iirc)

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding :D
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Postby guillex » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:52 am

I never said "ZOMFG B UNCRHUSHHHHHHHH OR DIEZZZZZZ" ... I said as close to it as possible... Why?

Because, if you're not doing raids yet, the easiest stat to stack for uncrush is block rating.

Hmmmmmm...................... 24% chance to block? In an instance? And I'm 2% crushable? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

"As close to uncrushable as possible." You don't have to be. But it's cooler.

Thanehand wrote:True. 485 to be uncritabble in 5mans/heroics. However, it is possibly to do it under this amount if your healer is overgeared, and you are undergeared. (i.e. you can't cope with more mobs, but the healer is outhealing the damage)


Oh yeah, for sure you can do it with less... But why would you do that to a group? If you're going to be a tank, then you should be as close to the base marks for what you're running, as early as possible.

It just shows that you're not trying to rush things, that you care about what you're doing, that you're willing to invest the time, and that you don't like wiping or having your group/healer carry you.

That's just IMHO, though.
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Postby NarfJones » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:57 am

Guillex wrote:I never said "ZOMFG B UNCRHUSHHHHHHHH OR DIEZZZZZZ" ... I said as close to it as possible... Why?

Because, if you're not doing raids yet, the easiest stat to stack for uncrush is block rating.

Hmmmmmm...................... 24% chance to block? In an instance? And I'm 2% crushable? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

"As close to uncrushable as possible." You don't have to be. But it's cooler."


I prefer un-guillex-able.
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Postby Thanehand » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:01 am

Guillex wrote:I never said "ZOMFG B UNCRHUSHHHHHHHH OR DIEZZZZZZ" ... I said as close to it as possible... Why?

Because, if you're not doing raids yet, the easiest stat to stack for uncrush is block rating.

Hmmmmmm...................... 24% chance to block? In an instance? And I'm 2% crushable? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

"As close to uncrushable as possible." You don't have to be. But it's cooler.

Thanehand wrote:True. 485 to be uncritabble in 5mans/heroics. However, it is possibly to do it under this amount if your healer is overgeared, and you are undergeared. (i.e. you can't cope with more mobs, but the healer is outhealing the damage)


Oh yeah, for sure you can do it with less... But why would you do that to a group? If you're going to be a tank, then you should be as close to the base marks for what you're running, as early as possible.

It just shows that you're not trying to rush things, that you care about what you're doing, that you're willing to invest the time, and that you don't like wiping or having your group/healer carry you.

That's just IMHO, though.


Sorry Guilex. I didn't mean it like that. Tbh I was agreeing with you mostly, and trying to answer the OP with "no, he doesn't need 490 def".
Imo, based on the fact that I am in favour of EH over Avoidance, mostly, I would say that the OP's tank should get close to 485 def as possible (pref 485+) and Imo just stack a load of stamina first.
Agree though, Block value is great.
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Postby guillex » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:09 am

No worries Thane, I'm not getting defensive or anything. ;)
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Postby Brickhouse » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:02 pm

Just so it is clear, I was responding to the ORIGINAL POST =)

We are talking NORMAL 5 man instance here.

So, that means, "uncrushable" is not even a word that should be mentioned. Normal, 5-man crits, are not ZOOMMGG. Additionally, the most damaging thing to us, normally, is casters anyway, and pve spells do not crit.

Last time I checked, there was not too many "Phase 2 encounters" in normal instances where 1% dodge is going to be of ANY value. So, I again affirm my original position, suneater is garbage.

Sure, I agree with you in theory, the tank should have 485+ defense rating (incidentally, that is my amount of defense for HEROICS and almost all tanking I do in SSC/TK- if I do a boss, i go up to 490, but there is a significant difference between SSC/TK and a normal 5-man instance). Is it necessary for normal instance? No, in fact, I think it is near impossible to even tank a normal 70 instance with MORE than 460 defense, IF the tank is a fresh 70? Where are you gonna get the gear of that quality when you ding 70? Sure, you can get some very nice quest greens in SMV and Netherstorm, and a good blue here and there.

Anyway, arguing about a few defense is kind of mute, anyway. We can agree to disagree: I will accept your answer, that you believe you shouldn't even get out of bed in the morning without less than 485 defense. And, you accept that my position is that it is more than possible to tank NORMAL instances with 460 defense rating (and that I probably would not encourage anything lower than that number).

We both agree 430 is insufficient.
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Postby Impervium » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:49 am

No, in fact, I think it is near impossible to even tank a normal 70 instance with MORE than 460 defense, IF the tank is a fresh 70? Where are you gonna get the gear of that quality when you ding 70? Sure, you can get some very nice quest greens in SMV and Netherstorm, and a good blue here and there.



Actually, I had 491 defense as soon as I dinged 70, before I even had my defense skill level in combat.
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Postby guillex » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:14 am

Brickhouse wrote:Just so it is clear, I was responding to the ORIGINAL POST =)

We are talking NORMAL 5 man instance here.


This I know

Brickhouse wrote:So, that means, "uncrushable" is not even a word that should be mentioned. Normal, 5-man crits, are not ZOOMMGG. Additionally, the most damaging thing to us, normally, is casters anyway, and pve spells do not crit.


For a new 70, what's the easiest stat to stack to gain uncrushable? Block Rating. So, for a new 70, the closer they are to uncrushable, the more block rating they have, meaning the more they're blocking, meaning they're getting more aggro through holy shield charges.

The fact that I used the term uncrushable does NOT MEAN that I was saying "you need to be xx.xx% uncrushable for a normal instance."

Brickhouse wrote:Last time I checked, there was not too many "Phase 2 encounters" in normal instances where 1% dodge is going to be of ANY value. So, I again affirm my original position, suneater is garbage.


I agreed with you on this point. Maybe if you were able to read things properly, and not put words in my mouth, you would have seen that I was agreeing with you. Here it is again, with parts in bold for emphasis:

Guillex wrote:Ok, no. The SE is the best pally mitigation weapon out there. Better than the King's Defender. But you shouldn't be running around with it for regular tanking... It's a phase 2 weapon ... One that you can switch to for more mitigation when you have a threat lead.


Ok? Ok. Read properly next time, don't try to make me look like a jackass.

Brickhouse wrote:Sure, I agree with you in theory, the tank should have 485+ defense rating (incidentally, that is my amount of defense for HEROICS and almost all tanking I do in SSC/TK- if I do a boss, i go up to 490, but there is a significant difference between SSC/TK and a normal 5-man instance). Is it necessary for normal instance? No, in fact, I think it is near impossible to even tank a normal 70 instance with MORE than 460 defense, IF the tank is a fresh 70? Where are you gonna get the gear of that quality when you ding 70? Sure, you can get some very nice quest greens in SMV and Netherstorm, and a good blue here and there.


Actually, there's a guide for pre-raid gear that will get you uncrit/uncrush at 70. So yes, while it might be hard PRE-70 to get uncrit, it's not impossible to get it at 70. Seriously. Crafted items count, you know. :) And for the most part, the quest rewards are rare items, and will help get your defense rating up quite quickly.

Brickhouse wrote:Anyway, arguing about a few defense is kind of mute, anyway. We can agree to disagree: I will accept your answer, that you believe you shouldn't even get out of bed in the morning without less than 485 defense. And, you accept that my position is that it is more than possible to tank NORMAL instances with 460 defense rating (and that I probably would not encourage anything lower than that number).

We both agree 430 is insufficient.


It's moot, not mute.

And again, you're making me out to be a jackass. I never said it was impossible to do it with less than 485. It's OPTIMAL to be at 485 for normal instances. I'm not a dictator in that respect. If you can do it, then do it, but if you're not willing to put in the time to make sure that you have the best equipment available to you to help out your group, then they're just pulling you along.

I really do like how you put words in my mouth. It's kinda cute.

And just so you know, my sig is not representative of my current stats. Also, I didn't step foot into Kara until I was sure that I was uncrit/uncrush after respeccing from Holy. I made sure that I had the proper gear, enchants, and gems. That's a relevant statement, because I'd have done the same thing if I'd respecced to prot at 70.
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Postby sucellus » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:34 am

Jesus, chill out man.
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Postby guillex » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:37 am

sucellus wrote:Jesus, chill out man.


I am chill. I just don't like it when things I say are taken out of context. In any case, I've made my point.
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Postby sweeney » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:30 am

Even if I'm AOE tanking multiple pulls in a normal 5-man wearing pure threat gear, I don't go under 480-485 defense. There's just no reason to be crittable.

Someone worrying about dodge/agility for avoidance when they're still crittable is a pretty good sign that they have no idea what they're doing.

And honestly, I don't think gearing for uncrushability (or even *towards* uncrushability) is necessary for a normal 5-man. It'll eventually happen just because your pieces all either have block or avoidance, but it's not a priority.
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Postby guillex » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:15 am

Sweeney wrote:And honestly, I don't think gearing for uncrushability (or even *towards* uncrushability) is necessary for a normal 5-man. It'll eventually happen just because your pieces all either have block or avoidance, but it's not a priority.


Different strokes fo' different folks!
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