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Threat vs. Mitigation

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Threat vs. Mitigation

Postby Serrot » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:28 am

I'm a little confused. (That's not hard to do. Trust me!) The general rule of thumb that I've seen around here has been, for 5-mans, focus on maximizing your threat (i.e. + spell damage gear) and for raids, focus on mitigation leading towards uncrushability.

I understand the need for getting to uncrushable. What I guess I'm confused about is having your threat stats drop for more mitigation while everyone else is getting gear that is increasing their threat.

I have about 305 spell dmg in my 5-man gear. Occasionally, a mage crits and pulls aggro. My raid gear has about 190 spell dmg thus far. Aren't I more likely to loose aggro to casters/healers/DPS in my Raid gear?

How do you manage to hold aggro with less threat? What am I missing??

Thanks!!
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Postby Phaex » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:39 am

Uh no, not really. I'm tanking with 100ish spelldamage from t4 pieces only in most raidsetups, and switch as needed.

For example, when i'm #2 tank on void reaver, i switch to 400ish spelldamage, to maximize active threat generation. Same for alar and tidewalker addtanking.

5 mans are a different story, when you are working with lots of cc it becomes even worse. Thats where more spelldamage is shining. Frontloading threat is all that matters here. I used salv on every DD back then.
You can never ever equip enough spelldam for those mindless tard-mages, shooting instantpyros, 20ms after you started autoattacking that mob.
No warrior can do anything against that, neither can you. So don't even think about seeing this as your fault ; )

If you tend to lose agro later on, on bosses and such, work on your skillrotation. Its not that much of a spelldamage only thing, most people think it is.
Last edited by Phaex on Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Jaydin » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:48 am

spell damage is never a *bad* thing...reason you focus on it more in 5 mans is because mobs dont hit as hard and you actually want to take more damage in order to replace that damage with heals = more mana.

since raid bosses hit really hard already, you need to stack the stats to balance it out. also, in raids, most people realize that if you pull aggro, you die...mobs usually will find the one guy not watching their aggro, runs over to them, one shots them, and goes back to the tank...if that happens, its totally the dps'er's fault. if the mob goes, one shots the guy, then runs rampant because EVERYONE was over the tank, thats when the tank needs to worry about generating more threat.
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Postby Sereen » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:51 am

Haha, I love the way you put it. Both of the answers are right on, and funny to boot.

mobs usually will find the one guy not watching their aggro, runs over to them, one shots them, and goes back to the tank...if that happens, its totally the dps'er's fault

and

You can never ever equip enough spelldam for those mindless tard-mages, shooting instantpyros, 20ms after you started autoattacking that mob.

Priceless. ^_^

-Ser
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Postby Xanatos » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:46 am

Ditto on what Jaydin said.

In 5 man instances, it's not so much stacking spell damage gear than subbing out your mitigation gear because you go oom in a hurry when tanking in your raid gear. So when you start thinking about gear to replace your raid-MT gear/superman-spandex, the logical way to go would be spell damage, since it allows your dps to open up that much sooner.
Last edited by Xanatos on Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jaydin » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:56 am

also, with more +spell damage, the less casting you have to do in general because you'll run at a higher threat per second rate than normal...still good to toss up holy shield most of the time, but you dont have to spam judgement everytime its up for that extra kick of getting a righteous judge in every 8-10 seconds
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:16 am

Basically due to mobs not hitting as hard and not lasting as long in 5 man instances, you don't get a lot of time to build aggro over time, whereas in a raid you do. Also in raids you can usually consecrate spam a lot harder due to lack of CC/more mana.

In raids the #1 priority is tank not dying because tank death = raid wipe. Losing aggro sometimes also is a raid wipe, but often an overzealous DPSer dying is not a big deal. In general though, Paladins have tons of baseline threat, and if they are doing everything correctly in a situation where they have a lot of mana to play with, they will be able to handle it even with small amounts of spell damage.
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Postby Luanny » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:14 am

well i think that the amount of spell damage you wear should be bassed off your group. i have alot of different gear in my bag at all time which i feel is great allows me to switch out more block value for aoe tanking more dodge for the big boys and what not.

so i guess in answer to managing treat vs mitigation, .. just go whatever your groups has room.
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Postby Everlight » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:15 pm

Here's the thing. Your first priority as a raid tank is not to hold aggro, nor is it to generate a lot of threat. Your very first priority is to not die. Your second priority is to reduce the amount of damage you take. Your third priority is to hold aggro, and your last priority is to ramp up the amount of threat you generate.

In the raid environment, your raidmates can help you hold aggro by holding back, Misdirecting, and the fights themselves often give you a good head-start until DPS starts laying it on, or provide break periods during which DPS can't attack or are busy on something else. The only person that can stop you dying from spike damage is really you, so that's first priority.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:05 am

There are also a lot more aggro wipes in raids than in 5 mans.
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Postby Lore » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:19 am

Everlight wrote:Here's the thing. Your first priority as a raid tank is not to hold aggro, nor is it to generate a lot of threat. Your very first priority is to not die. Your second priority is to reduce the amount of damage you take. Your third priority is to hold aggro, and your last priority is to ramp up the amount of threat you generate.

In the raid environment, your raidmates can help you hold aggro by holding back, Misdirecting, and the fights themselves often give you a good head-start until DPS starts laying it on, or provide break periods during which DPS can't attack or are busy on something else. The only person that can stop you dying from spike damage is really you, so that's first priority.


^ what he said

It doesn't matter how well you can hold aggro, if you die you're no better of a tank than an overzealous Warlock.

That said, the spelldamage for threat tends to come somewhat naturally in 25-mans. There's a couple pieces of T4 that are worth wearing, as well as some T5 and some offset items (such as Belt of the Guardian) that are specifically made for Paladin tanks. Once you get into BT and Hyjal the itemization gets a LOT better as well.
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