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Maybe Really Stupid

Postby Lowgrus » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:57 am

Okay,
So I was driving to work today and I'm a huge loser and all I think about is this game. At work and although I pretty much have the talent tree memorized. I was wondering if it would be feasable to do 0/40/21. I mean my god I own so freaking hard with sanctity aura. I figured I'd lose out on Reckoning. And perhaps Ancicipation which anticipation is no big deal becuase again my gear already makes me uncrushable beyond the need of anticipation. The 10 percent would make up for reckoning and then some imo. Not sure how it would all work. Now all of you dont have a heart attack now not having avengers shield. Our key pulling thing in a 5 man instance. but what about in a raid I mean I dont know all i've tanked is kara gruul and mag, but seems like on a long boss battle, that initial aggro is obviously nice, but in the long run would sancitty be better?

Again I haven't even looked at what all I'd be giving up in the prot tree for that. So dont be like OMFG you noob :D.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:05 am

Avenger's Shield is a pretty big benefit for us in 25-man encounters where something isn't tauntable (or at least not reliably tauntable) but needs to be picked up anyway, Leotheras for example.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:26 am

Being uncrushable has nothing to do with Anticipation, being uncrittable does though.
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Postby adese » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:12 am

Vanifae wrote:Being uncrushable has nothing to do with Anticipation, being uncrittable does though.


Defense does give you dodge/parry/block in addition to removing crits from the table. While it doesn't give much of those, they do help you go towards being uncrushable.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:24 am

adese wrote:
Vanifae wrote:Being uncrushable has nothing to do with Anticipation, being uncrittable does though.


Defense does give you dodge/parry/block in addition to removing crits from the table. While it doesn't give much of those, they do help you go towards being uncrushable.

It helps but the correlation is so small, that you can have 490 defense and still be crushable.
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Postby Aessina » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:30 am

Vanifae wrote:
adese wrote:
Vanifae wrote:Being uncrushable has nothing to do with Anticipation, being uncrittable does though.


Defense does give you dodge/parry/block in addition to removing crits from the table. While it doesn't give much of those, they do help you go towards being uncrushable.

It helps but the correlation is so small, that you can have 490 defense and still be crushable.


But if you're uncrushable, you're also uncrittable (as long as Holy Shield stays up)
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:34 am

Aessina wrote:But if you're uncrushable, you're also uncrittable (as long as Holy Shield stays up)

Holy Shield has nothing to do with being uncrittable.

Holy Shield can get you to be uncrushable but it does not in any way increase Defense.

Now I may be wrong, but getting 490 Defense will help you to getting uncrushable but it does not make you uncrushable. You can easily stack Defense greens and get uncrittable and still be pitifully far from being uncrushable.
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Postby Prepared » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:41 pm

Vanifae wrote:
Aessina wrote:But if you're uncrushable, you're also uncrittable (as long as Holy Shield stays up)

Holy Shield has nothing to do with being uncrittable.

Holy Shield can get you to be uncrushable but it does not in any way increase Defense.

Now I may be wrong, but getting 490 Defense will help you to getting uncrushable but it does not make you uncrushable. You can easily stack Defense greens and get uncrittable and still be pitifully far from being uncrushable.


Blocked attacks cannot crit, just as they cannot crush. So if you are uncrushable by virtue of Holy Shield, you would by the same mechanics be uncrittable.
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Defense < 490 = Healing gear or Hydross gear.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:14 pm

So you are saying you could have 350 defense and still be uncrittable because of Holy Shield?
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Postby jere » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:12 pm

Vanifae wrote:So you are saying you could have 350 defense and still be uncrittable because of Holy Shield?


As long as holy shield is up, that is the theory yes. However, the moment you get stunned, disarmed, etc, that may go out the window as you are technically crushable in those situations I believe. Or simply due to lag...so you could get crits in situations where holy shield is down or some other mechanic reduces your dodge/parry/block (assuming less than 490 def)
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Postby Vinsent » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:15 pm

Right, if you somehow managed to get 102.5% avoidance with HS up and wer at say 350 def you cannot be crit.

The reason the avoidance means you cant be crushed is it pushes it off the table, crits are on the table too, and get pushed off first.

However there are times (knockdowns, stuns etc) where you cant block, where if you didnt have 490 def you can be crit. (or hit in the back, etc)

Crits hurt much much worse than crushes, so I dont know why you would ever gear yourself that way, but if you cannot be crushed you cannot be crit.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:48 pm

You could level to 70 without ever taking one point of damage, have 1 defense, and if you had enough dodge/parry/block on your gear you'd be uncrittable with Holy Shield.

The issue is more that if we can become uncrittable no matter what, without having to rely on Holy Shield, why would we? Defense isn't particularly scarce, and it does still give a healthy amount of avoidance. Anticipation itself is worth 3.2 dodge/block/parry/miss, and although it's definitely not Deflection, that's still a fairly decent amount.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:54 pm

Vinsent wrote:The reason the avoidance means you cant be crushed is it pushes it off the table, crits are on the table too, and get pushed off first.


Crits actually are generally considered not to be on the table first. The order as we know it goes:

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Crit
Crush
Hit

with things higher on the table pushing things lower on the table off as their chance increases. If you were to get 96.8% miss/dodge/block/parry without any +defense at all, against a typical +3 level/boss mob with 5.6% crit you'd technically be uncrushable -- you'd just be crittable.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:22 pm

What I was getting at you still need 490 defense to be a standard mainline tank.

By your wording then warriors don't need to get 490 defense because Sheild Black gives them 75% to block pushing everything off the table, and we know this is not the case.

As stated above Critical attacks are far more severe then crushing blows.
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Postby Vinsent » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:09 pm

Lore wrote:
Vinsent wrote:The reason the avoidance means you cant be crushed is it pushes it off the table, crits are on the table too, and get pushed off first.


Crits actually are generally considered not to be on the table first. The order as we know it goes:

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Crit
Crush
Hit

with things higher on the table pushing things lower on the table off as their chance increases. If you were to get 96.8% miss/dodge/block/parry without any +defense at all, against a typical +3 level/boss mob with 5.6% crit you'd technically be uncrushable -- you'd just be crittable.


Right, I see how what I wrote could be confusing, what I meant was that crit was pushed off the table before crush was (or at least I thought it was) though Im not 100% sure now.

Either way your table looks mostly right, and yeah 490 def is the way to go.
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