AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Lieris » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:02 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:I don't know that seeing range circles and so on is all that different from the timer bars, announcements and arrows that other bossmods provide. You go from having a general sense of what the abilities do to seeing a more precise indicator that means you don't have to think much about it. Yes, adding more kinds of indicator does alter the difficulty, but not because any individual type is more of a cheat than the others.


I am fairly sure that announcements are part of the Blizzard UI since Wrath and Blizzard have said they don't have a problem with the timer bars that boss mods provide, I won't bother finding a quote but I think they've said they tune encounters assuming you have these bars. It's intentional that certain boss abilities are on timers and they want you to be ready for them.

Having big red circles to advertise environment damage is very different. It doesn't just cross the line, it sets it on fire then pees on it.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Chicken » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:10 pm

I don't know really, I was already doing most of the things it can do mentally. The difference the mod makes is that it gives a completely accurate idea of where things are, instead of a mostly accurate idea. I already knew that the slime exploding at Rotface essentially meant that where you had to stand is where no one was. The difference running this makes is that I can guarantee not getting hit by anything at all during it, instead of getting hit by a single slime. Most of the rest is the same really. It warns for most anything that can be avoided by simply running away from a specific person's position, or it provides a visual version of the already sound based ranged checks a lot of boss mods employed.

Though I've been leery about recommending it to my guild I'll admit, but that's more because the people who could truly benefit from it really shouldn't be taxing their computers any more. Making them wizards at not getting themselves frozen by someone else's ice cube alas still won't save them from their computer grinding to a halt when getting pulled towards Sindragosa.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Joanadark » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:33 pm

I'm with Chicken.

AVR and AVR-E don't do anything that standard proximity meters, boss mod alerts, raid warnings, and general spatial awareness didn't allow you to easily do already. They just present it in a more visual format instead of a text format.

I can't think of a single actually hard fight that AVR would actually make easier for raid groups of skilled players who actually understand the mechanics. Nobody is going to get a HLK kill or Alone in the Darkness kill because of what AVR is capable of doing. All the addon does is make a lot of the set-up less annoying, and let you unclutter the rest of your ui by getting rid of things like proximity monitors.

I'm sure AVR will make things easier for bad players who lack the situational awareness and mechanics understanding of top players who would be able to visualize the in-game distances and damage radii all by themselves.
I don't see how narrowing the skill gap is a bad thing. An addon like this isn't going to make the top players better than they already are though, just raise the bottom line.

As for the pre-pull marking stuff, I don't think anyone has a problem with that, since everybody already does it with cooking fires, elune stones, engineering flares, and raid icons already. Being able to actually draw on the game surface just makes things easier.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Joanadark » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:38 pm

If that was addressed at me, all I was trying to say is that AVR isn't "cheating" because it's just presenting the same information that was already available in a different format; a more visually displayed one. Is no different than more visual learners responding better to graphics in class.
AVR doesn't actually enhance your ability to get out of the way of goo, or avoid shock blasts.

The most common attack I've seen on this addon is that it reduces the "skill requirement" of difficult fights. All I'm saying is that it doesn't, in fact, do that, any more than the choice of using well-designed raid frames verses using the baseline blizzard raid ui for healing makes healing difficult encounters less of a challenge. It doesn't materially change the basic task you have to do, just changes the way you are able to process the information that was already available to you and make it more efficient. If that's what you consider "cheating", then ok.

"People process information in different ways" is exactly what I was trying to point out. A good player will process the information regardless. I've seen some incredible players that have absolutely horrible UIs. The addons don't make the player, regardless of what R&D forums trolls would have you believe.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:32 am

Tried it tonight, and found that rapid camera angle/zoom changes desync the raid markers from the people they're supposed to be on - tested it at PP-25-hard.

Was great when I wasn't moving my camera - gave me a great idea how people were doing at plague handling, etc.

As soon as vertical movement ('splosions), zoom, pan, etc were done - KAPOW! Random circles everywhere.

Sketching tool looks nice even if you didn't use the boss-mod.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby chinoquezada » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:24 pm

Joanadark wrote:I can't think of a single actually hard fight that AVR would actually make easier for raid groups of skilled players who actually understand the mechanics. Nobody is going to get a HLK kill or Alone in the Darkness kill because of what AVR is capable of doing. All the addon does is make a lot of the set-up less annoying, and let you unclutter the rest of your ui by getting rid of things like proximity monitors.


QFT.

If your raid group needs this addon to beat an encounter, you really don't matter in the grand scheme of things (aka. you won't "cheating" into server firsts or stuff like that as people far better and more organized will have already achieved those things)

If your raid group doesn't need this addon but appreciate the way it simplifies menial tasks, then the addon itself doesn't matter anyway as by the time you would be contesting world/region/server 1sts, there won't be enough data to actually make the addon an asset just yet. (or if it does, the other contestants will surely be all over it as much as you are)
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Lieris » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:53 pm

That's a really myopic way of looking at it. There's more to the raiding game than the bleeding edge world/server first type guilds.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby fafhrd » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Levantine wrote:Reference to moderated(deleted) post


No clue what you're talking about, the mod doesn't do anything people shouldn't be doing in their heads already. If people weren't doing things like moving where no one was after a goo is flung on Putricide/Rotface or spreading out before shock vortices went off, I don't see how you could argue with a straight face they aren't lacking a particular skill other people have, because they very literally (and by definition of the word "lack") are.

Now, if encounters like these were traditionally solved by actually looking where AoEs are going to hit and avoiding them, and a mod came along that magically told you where they were going to be to make it easier to avoid, that would be one thing. However, this mod can't help you in those situations. It can only help in the case of aoes that are targetted at players, and in those situations if you were using your eyes every time to predict where a nuke will land, you were generally gambling anyway, since just ignoring the encounter graphics and moving to where no one is is guaranteed to be keep you safe every time with no cognitive effort. Especially in fights with no grouping-penalty so you can just stack and toggle between 2 points, like alg10 or heroic festergut melee. I guess the mod makes it easier to live with people who don't listen to their raid leader explain this, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just showing you extremely rudimentary strategy that you should have learned years ago.

I'm not going to deny that mods like this don't make it easier for middling guilds like mine to beat encounters easier, since our incidence of goo to the face went down plenty when I mentioned the mod, but I'm not going to deny that people who were drowning in goo weren't being idiots either. If only it helped them run out of blistering cold.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby chinoquezada » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:26 am

Lieris wrote:That's a really myopic way of looking at it. There's more to the raiding game than the bleeding edge world/server first type guilds.


Yes. But if your guild isn't "competing" for anything then why would you care if some other random guild is using it and not you?
What do you care about unfair advantages if there is no competition?
This takes into consideration that the only thing that you need to do in order to "not cheat with AVR" is just turn it off.

In my personal raiding experience, the difference between before and after AVR is that before I had to estimate a radial line around my char for proximity effects and I had to predict malleable good path. Successfully did it before, will continue to successfully do it afterward.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Treck » Tue May 04, 2010 6:15 am

This is a pretty booring addon imo.
It is greatly usefull, if you got a lot to focus on atleast.
It certainly wont make a hard fight easy, but it will make some fights slightly easier, or nobrainers. Not to mention that seeing the actual radious of aoeabilities you know will hit, makes it much easier to know exactly where you can stand, and where you cant.
Take blood princes, it will tell you exactly if someone is close enough, or just out of your personal range for the shock vortex. This is nothing hard anyway, and wont kill you if you happen to stand close to anyone, but it does make it easier in the way that you have an easier way of seeing if you will be pushed back or not, and where you can stand and not. You know the radious of the flame orb explosion, not that youve ever wanted to hug that person, but now you know where its safe to stand and you wont have to move more just to "be safe".
Its very usefull with the timer aswell, for some abilities.
Take an easy task as Festerguts spores, no way its hard, but you cant say it isnt easier with AVR, you know exactly when they are to explode, where you are safe, and its really easy seeing if theres 2 in meele.
Nothing that was hard before but its just easier now.
Rotface explosion wasnt hard eather, but you know where you can stand and where not to, why run through half the room? when you can be safe in the middle.
Only real "Problem" imo is Putricide, it still does make it easy with mallable. But the problem is his roof. AVR doesnt know your camera is beeing stopped by a wall, so if you "zoom" out, but your camera is stuck in a wall, the painted circles WILL move as if your camera wasnt stuck, this can happen on all bosses ofc, but putricide is really the only one with an annoying roof to make it an issue.
Esp if your playing the abom, however then the abilities isnt an issue for you anyway.
Sindrigosa blocks? same thing there, wasnt that hard placing on the right distance, but now you know exactly where you can stand to stand as close as you can. Not to mention the name of someone + a blue arrow on their head might not be marking enough, now a big red circle on them WILL make you see it a lot easier if someone close is getting it (esp in P3) and if they are moving or not.
I ONLY downloaded this addon for LK hc. It paints a red circle on whoever gets shadowtrap, thats big as its gonna be when its activated, hard to miss before, impossible to miss now.
Also the plague, you can see a lot easier if that person is running or not, and how long untill it has to be dispelled.
It was also able to paint a blue circle on a person beeing persued on Lady DW, now this is not 100%, since its not always it will know if a person is beeing followed or not, so you cant go "ah well theres no blue cicles here i guess im fine" but if you do see it, you know that it wont be safe going close if that person would fail.
Slightly usefull on marrowgar, if people get bonespiked far enough away that you cant see the healthbar of the spike but thats about it.
Only fight i think ive forgotten is Blood queen. Yeh sure, its nice seeing the exact range of the blood bolt splash, esp if your running around biting people.
Its no gamebreaking addon, but it is convinient imo, It does bring out some of the fun in the game, such as beeing able to anticipate distances and abilities by your own, seperating yourself from those who tunnelvision to much.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Baelor » Thu May 06, 2010 12:30 pm

It's pretty useful for Putricide hard, at least. Seeing a visual indicator of where the plague is and who's eligible to receive it on their avatar is loads easier than looking at Grid and then having to quickly assemble the Grid/avatar positioning info combination dynamically and on-the-fly.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby inthedrops » Thu May 06, 2010 1:37 pm

I think some of the disagreements in this thread are due to the different skill and guild levels of the visitors here.

There are some in this thread saying that it makes things "easier", but not absurdly so (a.k.a. cheating). That sounds honest and like a reasonable statement to me.

There are also individual/s stating or implying that the guilds who would not get a kill without the use of a mod like this are probably not top tier raiding guilds. I think that's also a reasonable and fair statement.

What I don't think is reasonable, particularly for non "worlds first" guilds is the following quote:

What do you care about unfair advantages if there is no competition?


There is competition beyond world firsts. For example, a guild ranked #17 on a server might have been chasing the tail of the #16 guild for months. And something like this might fix a couple "fails" in the guild which finally gets them a kill before the other guild. The point is, people compete with the rank in which they can be competitive. My guild will likely never be a world first guild, so we compete with two other guilds for server firsts. I don't really care who gets world first because I'm fairly confident it won't be us :)

I think I probably have similar feelings as Levantine whose post was deleted but had a good point in between his flaming. I think his point was that certain people respond differently (better or worse) to the clues this mod can give than other people. For some people it can make a drastic difference. Literally the difference between failing or succeeding.

The best example I can think of (mind you I've never used the mod only seen the demo videos of it in action) is Malleable goo. People who kinda "suck" just fail to see that the Malleable goo timer is almost off cooldown and that they better start looking for tiny little green things coming their way. With this mod, big giant circles show up around them yelling DANGER don't go here! It's a big difference for those whose awareness isn't as good as others. How could you NOT see the circle compared to trying to (A) realize that malleable goo was even cast and (B) figure out if you're in the path of any.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Treck » Thu May 06, 2010 7:39 pm

Think of it as a whole new bossmod, like DXE, Bigwigs, DBM etc.
But instead of having bars that count down, or marks on people with debuffs, you have cirkles on the players instead.

Its a whole new way of interpreting the bosses abilities, and in many ways a lot easier.
Its like driving with a GPS, sure, you can still drive without one, but if you wanna get there fast and easy, you trust your gps, however dont stop looking at the road just cuz you got a GPS, since it wont do any actual driving.
Once your famililar with an area, you know where to turn and when not to, and you dont have to rely on your GPS as much as before.
Think of the old bossmods as a GPS telling you when to turn with some audio message, and having a countdown for when to turn as text on a black screen.
And AVR as a "new" GPS models with a map showing the actual roads and your position.

Nomatter what level your playing at, what this addon does, WILL make it "easier" to handle abilities.
Theres been some before, with a few lines and proximity markers, but its never before been boss specific, one i remember atleast had a grid on your chars feet, to see how far away from people you were (but since it wasnt boss specific, it was just annoying in some fights, and harder to anticipate sine different fights had different range specifics, that you had to get to know it by heart).

I heavily recommend this addon, even though i think it takes away some aspects of raiding.
And think this is the beginning of a new way of making bossmods, most likely the other bossmods are gonna follow soon enough.
Maybe only slightly, to some extent, but this way of visaualising important stuff on people is not gonna go away anytime soon.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby Chicken » Sat May 08, 2010 4:34 am

inthedrops wrote:The best example I can think of (mind you I've never used the mod only seen the demo videos of it in action) is Malleable goo. People who kinda "suck" just fail to see that the Malleable goo timer is almost off cooldown and that they better start looking for tiny little green things coming their way. With this mod, big giant circles show up around them yelling DANGER don't go here! It's a big difference for those whose awareness isn't as good as others. How could you NOT see the circle compared to trying to (A) realize that malleable goo was even cast and (B) figure out if you're in the path of any.
What I was personally getting at before is that a lot of mods already used a 'visual' warning for that. Many boss mods have the capability of making a target of an ability say something, which will make a "Malleable Goo on Me!" show up right above their heads if you have the speech bubbles on, which is the default option so most people do. AVR just adds an extra degree of accuracy to it as the circle it leaves will not move with the player targeted as speech bubbles do, and also makes it clearer exactly what area the ability will hit.

I do agree that it's a ton of help on heroic Putricide though, but most of it's other functionality is really just presenting information you already had in a different and slightly more accurate way.
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Re: AVR - Augmented Virtual Reality

Postby xstratax » Mon May 10, 2010 2:49 pm

If this mod is cheating, than so is DBM/DXE/Bigwigs to be honest, as both give you a leg up on UI purists.

Thing is this is a WONDERFUL tool for explaining fights, as you can visually show people where to go in the room itself, John Madden style. It has made the concept of Range easier to understand as well, because lets face it there are plenty of visual cues for longer ranges, but it can be challenging at times to figure out 5, 8, 10 yards, some make it too big, some too smal, and before you know it Bloodbolt Whirl/Empowered Vortex has wiped the raid. We like to post here on all kinds of tricks and tips to make our raiding experience easier to manage, how is this really that different, its just another tool we have to make sure that we avoid taking unnecessary damage, and progress further faster than before, and with a slightly greater margin of error.

Yes it may take some of the skill out of raiding, but then so did DBM in a way. All this is doing is giving yet another idiot check in addition to DBM marking someone.

I personally have found this mod to be quite helpful, and would recommend it to all who use DBM. I have what many would describe as the worlds worst PC, and AVR+AVRE has yet to hog memory enough to finally kill my FPS.
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