Rawr.ProtPaladin

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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:54 pm

Yeah about that Mitigation Points = constant

I stumbled across it when I tried to figure out wtf was wrong with my calculations
and equipped a druid bear with gear that gave him
0 armor, 0 avoidance, 0 AP (to not have savage defense), 460 resilience (uncritable), I removed all racial agility as well.
He did end up showing 100% damage taken, 0% mitigation.
Mitigation Points = 17000.

What I can tell you is: 17000 is the scalar that made the Survival and Mitigation bars roughly equal in size.
Astrylian has been very, very strict in letting Mitigation Points be a percentage.
To strecth that tiny bar [0.00, 1.00] to something in the range of EH bars, the arbitrary multiplier 17000 was deemed to be adequate.

The only trouble is, that number was never supposed to show inside the bars as rating :roll:
I guess it's possible to split the bar size from the value displayed inside. Something we're looking into.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:10 pm

In case we find a fix for this bar issue, and Mitigation Points would be an absolute measure that shows 100% when you take all the damage.

I could imagine the possibility of making gear templates depending on dungeon tier.
Lets assume a dungeon tier is defined by item level for a second.

I would then equip my character with gear of constant item level, and gem it, matching the socket color.
This set would give me some % mitigation, which is what I believe Blizz Devs also look at when they create encounters.

Could be interesting to see how the gear you wear compares to this 'Dungeon Set' ?

Like, the standard Ulduar set gives you 85% (arbitrary) mitigation. You currently have 98% of that value.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:05 pm

Yep, Solieu and I discussed that briefly.

I was thinking you could sum the item levels of your gear and use that as a multiplier for Mitigation Points. The problem with that is upgrading an item would increase the multiplier and make your Mitigation Points higher even if the item you upgraded did not increase mitigation.

Using "default dungeon sets" as comparison for your gear could be cool and avoids that issue. I'm sure people would get a kick out of seeing themselves have 150% of the Survival Points and 120% of the Mitigation points (or whatever the numbers would be) of the "default 5 man dungeon set" when they're wearing Heroic Ulduar gear.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sun May 03, 2009 10:17 am

Rev 2.2.2 is going to be released this afternoon.

Changelist: <work in progress>

- Default ranking Mode reworked.
- Two new ranking modes: ProtWarr Mode, Damage Taken Mode
- Trinket On Use effect handler. Default is set to ignore, options: Averaged, Active
- Thunderclap, Frost Feever, Judgements of the Just boss attack speed penalty works as debuff.
-
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Mon May 04, 2009 2:32 am

I'm playing with it now. I like how you've added the mitigation formulas to the tooltips for the rankings and the prot warrior option. Great work!

One very minor thing I noticed: The Target Armor slider has a "Default Tier 7 Boss" description or something like that. I adjusted it and the description went away, and now I can't find the value to get it back to that default.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Mon May 04, 2009 9:44 am

Try using the keyboard arrow keys too when you adjust the armor trackbar.
Arow left/right should change the value by 1, mousewheel by 3, clicking inside the bar or pageup/down by 1000.

I'm not happy with this. A combination of drop-down box + trackbar would be nice, to easily re/select preset values but still have the 'feel' of a trackbar.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu May 07, 2009 8:43 am

I found something weird, when I turn off the use of Holy Shield, it ranks Helm of the Faceless than T8.5 helm higher (TankPoints mode), when I turn it on, it puts T8.5 ahead. Which is odd, since a lot of the Tier helm's block rating gets pushed off the table into uselessness, where as Faceless keeps it's full glory.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby lythac » Thu May 07, 2009 8:55 am

Are you block capped with Faceless using HS? If you aren't then that could be why.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Thu May 07, 2009 3:24 pm

There are other factors that change when you go from hittable to unhittable. Try reducing the value of threat rating to 0, and see if there's the same sort of activity.

Remember: More avoidance = less blocked hits = less holy shield procs = less threat. When you are block capped, additional block rating will change nothing (including your threat). But if you are unhittable, the pure avoidance pushes off those blocks (and thus the holy shield threat from the blocks) I know it's not ideal, but if we are counting threat, we count *every factor* about threat. I'm sure these sort of anomalies will start to pop up more if and when we implement the tiny bit of threat from damage shield effects.

While threat points it is a good factor for eyeballing items, the common suggestion we have is when optimizing, you set your Threat Scale to 0, and simply have an optimzation requirement for the amount of TPS you want to pull. What this will do is still make you happy with the items it pulls out, but also won't greatly penalize items that incidentally provide less TPS (pure avoidance items specifically).

I wouldn't call this a sort of bug, since it's working as intended.. it's just an undesirable factor. Other than fiddling with the threat scale, can any of you think of a way to do this differently?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 07, 2009 4:08 pm

Forgive me if this comment is too basic for this discussion, but when I have tried Rawr previously (and this goes for every other gear evaluator I have tried), there is no setting for minimum values of defense.

So when I ask Rawr to optimise gear, I often end up with a set-up that makes me crittable and hence is a useless combination of gear. By the time I swap gear/gems/enchants to reach defense cap, it pretty much defeats the purpose of having an optimiser.

I would very much like if there was a way to specify minimums for both defense and for avoidance+block. I would like to shift other parameters for situational sets while maintaining at least 540 defense and 102.4 avoidance+block.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Thu May 07, 2009 6:39 pm

Yes, what you have described exists in Rawr.

In the optimize window, below "Optimize for" you can add a requirement for Defense Skill (for those who don't trust resilience or the block-pushing-crit-off-the-table effect), % Chance to be Crit, Avoidance, Avoidance + Block, and so on.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 07, 2009 7:46 pm

Excellent! I will have to re-visit Rawr.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Doriangray » Sat May 09, 2009 6:19 am

I've been trying since Thursday to wrap my mind around Rawr (the ProtPaladin extension specifically), but I'm not sure I got it yet. For the record and to see whether I maybe forgot a step, I did the following

1) Imported my character from the armory
2) Set up buffs that seemed reasonable to me
3) Increased the amount bosses hit me for (experimented with ca. 80k), enabled parry haste
4) Started optimizing

Then I'll get results that seem to value Agility very high. For example, 16 agility to boots flat out beats 22 stam until I set threat rating to 0 or close to it, and the overall scale to 0.8. Now, I'm confused and don't know whether Rawr is telling me something wrong because I don't know how to use it, or whether agility really _is_ that good. Itemization point wise, 16 agi is more than 22 stam after all, but I'm not convinced that's a good metric ;) And yes, I'm aware that "halp! rawr sez agility gud, that true?!" isn't a very good description, but I'm also kinda lost in what information is useful and what not. Maybe that my (true) avoidance is at around 52% if I remember correctly, which doesn't seem too bad, but my health is just barely over 40k, even with all applicable raid buffs. That doesn't seem that much in comparison to some others that post here, and make me think it would make, if anything, stam more important?

So the real underlying question is: are there accepted best practices how to tweak rawr ratings for ProtPaladin to make most sense? Rules of thumb that say (I'm making this up from the top of my head, so these examples will probably not make much sense) "set your scale so survival and mitigation ratings are close to equal", "make rawr optimize with additional constraints so-and-so", etc? To me, the whole thing is just very much a black box yet, and I don't like black boxes :D Not sure where to start with the thing.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat May 09, 2009 6:41 pm

main reason agility gets so high ranking points is the armor it gives. I don't like it either (we're used to stacking stamina heh) but it seems when bosses hit really hard, damage reduction from armor becomes really valuable.

22stam is whatever it is in effective health. There's a point where the damage mitigated by armor exceeds exactly that amount of health. So for physical attacks agility can actually be better than 22 stamina.
This combined with the avoidance 16 agility gives you can Overall (EH + Mitigation points) be a higher score than just EH.
I've actually started replacing my stam/dodge gems with stam/agi ones...I'd rather put armor on cloak and always use Tuskarr's on boots, regardless what score agility gets. Sometimes you really want pure health or live a personal flavor.

About the black box thing, just leave the mitigation scale slider at its default. You'll do fine without, it's just a bonus for tweaking gear beyond the norm.
I generally get good all-around gear sets by setting the following optimizer constraints:

Option settings: (don't forget to spec, glyph, buff)
Threat scale 0.8, Mitigation Scale 1.0, Boss, AttackValue 80k, parry enabled, Trinket on Use: ignore, Holy shield: enabled

Optimize for Overall points
- Defense Skill >= 540
- Chance to Avoid + Block >= 100
- optimize food & elixir

Anything else becomes too specialized for single encounters.

I've quite frankly given up setting minimum health for overall gear sets. It's generally easier to become block capped at my level of gear, and instead gain what block value I have as 'health'. If you find yourself dieng to ability combinations (auto attack + special attack + auto attack) set a minimum health value. 40k seems alright imho it greatly depends on where you go.
I'm working on some EH soft cap presets at the moment you can select, rawr will try to get you within a bell-shaped curve of that health value. I'm not sure if it's wise to offer that as default option.

A set for aoe-tanking would go like this:

Option settings:
Threat scale 0.8, Mitigation Scale 1.0, Lvl 82, Armor: 10331, Attack Speed 0.25, AttackValue 30k, parry disabled, Trinket on Use: ignore, Holy shield: disabled

Optimize for Overall points
- Defense Skill >= 540
- Chance to Avoid + Block >= 100
- % Spell Hit Chance >= 100 (for consecration, disable misery and the like)
- optimize food & elixir
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Tue May 12, 2009 9:16 pm

2.2.3 coming out either around noon or late night.

ProtPaladin updates:

-More special effect support for librams, trinkets and set bonus.
-Support for Thorim hard mode Unbalancing Strike as debuff.
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