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Rawr.ProtPaladin

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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:22 pm

When you are compiling from source, it does not automatically move the DefaultDataFiles to it's necessary locations. In the base directory, there is a folder called DefaultDataFiles or somesuch. move the contents of that into /bin/Debug/Data/ and it'll show.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:40 pm

Super, thank you :)

After playing around with the initial tankadin module a log and the new propaladin a bit, I have the following questions/feedback:
o Why use the terms mitigation/survival? I rarely see these terms used on the boards, usually the talk goes to Effective Healt (same as survival?), avoidance, BV etc.
o Options for optimizing for unhitable would be great...cant seem to find it, but maybe thats just be being blind
o Sort options in lists based on TankPoints/Unhitable rating/etc would be nice
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:37 pm

I'm trying to come up with the best way to answer this.. Mitigation and Survival ratings aren't my creation, they were (by my understanding) made by the Rawr coordinator, Astrylian. The easiest way to explain it is it's how *Rawr* does ratings, and if I am to work on a model for Rawr, it's one of the things I have to abide by. I think that gets the message across well enough without getting too deep into it.

Survival Rating *is* Effective Health, Mitigation Rating *is* a Damage Taken %, merely scaled up to match Effective Health in a method to be able to compare the two. The common number is something like 7000 * (1 - Mitigation%)^-1 = Mitigation Rating.. it's actually a bit more complex than that, and the number changes according to gear level and such.

There is optimization for Unhitability, but in the form of "Avoidance" or "Avoidance + Block".. I suppose we can add "% Chance to be hit" or something, but that might overcrowd the list of optimizable options.

Sorting based on TankPoints is (in ProtPaladin) by going to the Options Tab, under Rankings select TankPoints. At that point Mitigation Rating on the charts is now equal to Tank Points. I don't like the way that works at the moment, but I'll look into making it a bit more apparent that it's now TankPoints.

In ProtPaladin there is also a setting to show just the raw DPS an item provides. I can modify that to show the raw Avoidance / Avoidance + Block an item provides as well, if we're all that interested in sorting it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:54 pm

Ok, I was afraid that the mitigation and survival was part of the base rawr.

I had not seen "Avoidance + Block" in ProtPaladin, it is a nice addition compared to tankadin and will do nicely :)

Regarding sorting on TankPoints, yeah its a bit backwards but as long as we get some discussion going on this board about how to use Rawr.ProtPaladin I dont think its a big issue.

Thank you for your quick responses...now I just have to figure out why TankPoints (in game addon) says that I am unhittable and ProtPaladin says that I still need about 4% to reach 102.x% :)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:09 am

I've got my fingers in those hit numbers at the moment, I was surprised as well first time I saw that.
Back then, I realized I was all cool with DR on parry and dodge but had completely forgotten about miss.
(I hate the Paperdoll frame and all that comes with it /cry, it just shows numbers and never tells you what they represent)

Use Tankpoints to check your miss chance and be sure to check the Target level in both Tankpoints and ProtPaladin is set to the same value.
A boss has a higher chance to hit you than a level 80 mob.

The addon Tankpoints is assumed to be spot on, barring bugs of couse but I trust Whitetooth to have enough people poking him in case there's something off in his addon.


Regarding those ranking terms....I was preparing to post about it here to get an idea of what we need to add.
We can't change that Rawr uses those terms as ranking default (= numbers = some % chance * some number to make pretty bars) and to be frank, they do make sense if you believe in certain model strategies.
I completely agree though, it's not the most common strategy. To make Rawr really cool for those who believe in Tankpoints, EH or TTL there's the option to change to that ranking model.

On top of that, for what it's worth, I'd prefer to let the user set the caps he believes in manually.
Like for example the 1h / special attack hit cap against Boss Level Mobs:
Do you believe in 8% ?
Are you from EJ and believe in 8.2% ?
Are you from the past and cling to 9% ?

Nothing is worse than getting numbers based on a model someone else made. Without the option to change the basic caps, there's just too many people who will say "can't use Rawr...it's doing it wrong" etc.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:13 am

Hmmm, I will have a good look at TankPoints values and the ProtPaladin values when I get home from work and try to figure out the difference. Although I am pretty sure that TankPoints was configured for lvl 83 mob...Ill post my findings :)

Regarding the difference in terminology, Im not sure how important it is. As a first time tank, I found it hard to see through. However, given a bit of advice from you guys, its really no problem.

Regarding user defined caps...I belive the Rawr.Mage module has something like that on an advanced tab...personally Im not that strong of a theorycrafter that I beg to disagree with the makers ;)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:45 am

Ok found the "problem" :)

The rawr armory character importer is having a bit of trouble translating the current talent choices to the 3.1 talent trees in the current version of ProtPaladin...fair enough. With the talents corrected Protpaladin, TankPoints and Maintankadin2 all agree that I am 0.34% short of being unhittable :oops:
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:50 am

Beta 2.2.0.7 is out, with ProtPaladin finally replacing Tankadin.
get it by following the download link at the rawr website (http://rawr.codeplex.com/)

ProtPaladin is our new, 3.1 ready, Tanking/Protection Spec Paladin model for Rawr, with a great emphasis on accuracy and frequent updates, maintained by active Paladin tanks.

If there are *any* missing features from Tankadin or especial changes that make you dislike ProtPaladin over Tankadin, please let us know!

Since we last reported in, Negarine/Neganur has been working diligently on refining the accuracy of our threat calculations, giving Hit% a much more realistic (and damned huge) value as a threat stat.

Don't forget that when optimizing your set, the default Boss Attack Value is still set for "Standard Naxx 25 Bosses" (Grobbulus/Anub'Rekhan) at 25,000 base attack. For a better fit, set Boss Attack Value to either 50,000 (Malygos and standard tier 8) or in the 80,000 range for bosses like Steelbreaker hard mode.

To look at Ulduar items, they are currently unspecified and thus under the Unknown filter. The best way to do it is to make custom filters that encase iLvl 219 items for normal mode Ulduar, and iLvl 216-232 for heroic Ulduar, iLvl 239 for hard mode.

Expect a filter and item cache update in the near future to make up for the Ulduar loot display issue.

Your feedback in reporting bugs and requesting features is greatly appreciated here. Negarine and I are frequent visitors to Maintankadin and respect this community a great deal; your words have a large weight on the direction and management of Rawr.ProtPaladin!
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:59 pm

Current release is : 2.2.0.9
Released: Apr 17 2009
Link: Rawr v2.2.0.9.zip

check it out :-)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Modal » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:28 pm

So, something seems off to me in the tankadin rawr module, and has for some time. In particular, it seems that the contribution of armor is weighted way, way too heavily.

For example, Rawr tells me that 240 armor is far and away the best possible glove enchant. This disagrees with the judgment of most knowledgeable tankadins and also with blizzard's (wouldn't the 800 armor enchant available to engineers be completely OP if this were accurate)?

It also recommends gemming Agility over Dodge, even with the threat scale turned all the way down, and this seems to be true no matter where you set the mitigation scale.

If you turn the mitigation scale way up, you get more reasonable rankings for enchants (armor vs. agility/defense to cloak, for example), but then stamina seems to be vastly undervalued (at 400% mitigation scale, it tells you to gem parry before stamina).

I wonder why this is? My best guess would be that the original author copied some code from the bear module which included the bear armor multiplier or something. Any thoughts?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:34 pm

Please, please be specific about which model you are using because:

RAWR.TANKADIN IS NO LONGER UPDATED OR SUPPORTED. IT IS OLD. IT IS INNACCURATE.
Excuse the caps, but it's necessary to stress. Ermad, the original author, has stopped playing prot and works on holy and ret. Negarine and I (Solieu) have completely dropped support of Tankadin to work on our rewrite, ProtPaladin.

There is no "original author" but Negarine and Myself for Rawr.ProtPaladin, and it is generally accurate given the way that the ratings system works.

There are two or three major issues with armor that have popped up and we are working on one of the major ones.

First of all, our definitions of ratings.. Survival and Mitigation rating, uses a double dipping system on Armor and anything that provides armor, since Survival Rating is EH (Health * Guaranteed Mitigation), and Mitigation Rating is a Damage Taken % scale.. which also includes that Guaranteed Mitigation.

It is something we've put a lot of thought into and resistance over, but when it comes down to it, there needs to be more voices with good arguments with experience with the terms that base Rawr insists on using.

The other issue, which is being worked on right now, is the presence of magic attacks, which in themselves are unblockable and have no armor benefits. We should have magic attack support ready within the next release. It's a complex thing that requires a fair amount of rewriting of our damage taken calculations (to provide conformity to our own standards) so it might not be ready.

So please, again, is it Tankadin that you are referring to with the armor problem, or is it ProtPaladin (in the absolute most recent release)?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Modal » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:01 pm

Sorry, I mean whatever is in the latest release of Rawr (2.2.0.9).

So, for example, this module tells me that 120 armor or 12 agility is a better cloak enchant than titanweave (16 defense). This is true even with threat scale turned all the way down, so that the crit from agility shouldn't matter. That suggests to me that armor is being over-valued.

Edit: the double-dipping effect you mention is I think what I'm seeing. I was coming around to that view myself in discussing rawr's gear rankings on my guild forums.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:40 pm

Yes, we already know that it is rated high.. do you have any suggestions though? Survival Points includes Armor reduction, Mitigation Points, by definition, include Armor Reduction. Rawr has it defined as such and I can't make a model without conforming to it. I'd either need some better calculations or some people with the knowledge to help argue it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Modal » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:00 pm

I'll think about it; the main reason I asked is that I was having a guild-forum debate about the trustworthiness of Rawr and I pointed out that it has always seemed to me to overvalue armor; I was wondering if I could find out why this is so.

What I think I don't really understand is, why do you need to use these pre-defined quantities to rank gear if they have this unfortunate result? Is there some barrier to just combining an EH rating and an avoidance rating? (Block complicates things, of course, but I mean in principle you're locked into this terminology and this way of calculating?)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:14 pm

The way that situation works is complex.

Rawr was based off of Astrylian's bear model, which uses "Survival Points" which is EH purely, "Mitigation Points" which is a scaled version of the damage taken %, and "Threat Points" which is a scaled version of tps.

Currently Rawr.ProtPaladin is *incredibly* accurate about the actual underlying calculations. Threat and resists and partial resists and all of that jazz is now at the best it's ever been. Incoming damage is getting better as we speak. Optimizing (given the correct input values) gives greatly ideal sets with agreed upon conjectures...

but..

No matter what I do underneath, we still have to conform under the standards that Rawr places in order to keep in good standing as a developer on the project. I have caught plenty of hell trying to fight for base changes like that, and it comes down following the rules.

I agree entirely with the idea of "Survival" "Mitigation" and "Threat" Ratings. because you are not optimizing for plain ol stats, you're going through a complex process of balancing both EH and Damage Reduction, which play off each other in an odd way. I can't just have the ratings be "EH" "Avoidance" "TPS" because you can't really look at it without an effective scalar (how much EH is equal to avoidance?)

Now, luckily, ProtPaladin and ProtWarr both have alternate ranking options. We do have our Mitigation Scale set as default to comply, but we also have Tankpoints and Burst Time ranking opttions for those who would like to do it that way.

If you'd like to discuss this further, and possibly look into helping make Rawr a better program, feel free to PM me, or open a Discussion thread on the Rawr website (http://rawr.codeplex.com)
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