The HP gap...

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Nich » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:45 pm

Girard wrote:Easiest solution, IMO...

Buff Sacred duty to 8 or 10% +sta instead of 6. It's not a massive difference (assuming 800 sta, that's what, 160-320 more HP than it currently gives?)

When we're talking about a 1.6k HP difference (including range slow, 1.2K base)... I don't know, buffing Sacred Duty is elegant, but 300 hp doesn't seem like it's going to make any real and noticeable difference, with there still being over 1k hp difference.
User avatar
Nich
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:09 pm
Location: au.Blackrock

Postby Girard » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:36 am

Nich wrote:
Girard wrote:Easiest solution, IMO...

Buff Sacred duty to 8 or 10% +sta instead of 6. It's not a massive difference (assuming 800 sta, that's what, 160-320 more HP than it currently gives?)

When we're talking about a 1.6k HP difference (including range slow, 1.2K base)... I don't know, buffing Sacred Duty is elegant, but 300 hp doesn't seem like it's going to make any real and noticeable difference, with there still being over 1k hp difference.


Why not have a visible HP distinction though? Bears have massively more HP than any other class. Warriors are second, face it, someone needs to be last. And I don't mind a 1-1.5k HP difference, that's not -that- massive. What irks me is a 2.5k difference.
Girard
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:15 pm

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:56 am

Girard wrote:
Nich wrote:
Girard wrote:Easiest solution, IMO...

Buff Sacred duty to 8 or 10% +sta instead of 6. It's not a massive difference (assuming 800 sta, that's what, 160-320 more HP than it currently gives?)

When we're talking about a 1.6k HP difference (including range slow, 1.2K base)... I don't know, buffing Sacred Duty is elegant, but 300 hp doesn't seem like it's going to make any real and noticeable difference, with there still being over 1k hp difference.


Why not have a visible HP distinction though? Bears have massively more HP than any other class. Warriors are second, face it, someone needs to be last. And I don't mind a 1-1.5k HP difference, that's not -that- massive. What irks me is a 2.5k difference.


Well a distinction is fine to a point, though I'd argue 1.6k is actually pretty signifcant. The problem is that the class that is last, shouldn't also be the class that takes the largest regular hits.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Maruko_ » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:16 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Girard wrote:
Nich wrote:
Girard wrote:Easiest solution, IMO...

Buff Sacred duty to 8 or 10% +sta instead of 6. It's not a massive difference (assuming 800 sta, that's what, 160-320 more HP than it currently gives?)

When we're talking about a 1.6k HP difference (including range slow, 1.2K base)... I don't know, buffing Sacred Duty is elegant, but 300 hp doesn't seem like it's going to make any real and noticeable difference, with there still being over 1k hp difference.


Why not have a visible HP distinction though? Bears have massively more HP than any other class. Warriors are second, face it, someone needs to be last. And I don't mind a 1-1.5k HP difference, that's not -that- massive. What irks me is a 2.5k difference.


Well a distinction is fine to a point, though I'd argue 1.6k is actually pretty signifcant. The problem is that the class that is last, shouldn't also be the class that takes the largest regular hits.


Agreed. I find even 1.2k health an infuriating difference when we also take more damage than a warrior.
Image
(not always accurate, I spec holy for arena)
User avatar
Maruko_
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:07 pm

Postby Voldiir » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:21 pm

Maruko_ wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Girard wrote:
Nich wrote:
Girard wrote:Easiest solution, IMO...

Buff Sacred duty to 8 or 10% +sta instead of 6. It's not a massive difference (assuming 800 sta, that's what, 160-320 more HP than it currently gives?)

When we're talking about a 1.6k HP difference (including range slow, 1.2K base)... I don't know, buffing Sacred Duty is elegant, but 300 hp doesn't seem like it's going to make any real and noticeable difference, with there still being over 1k hp difference.


Why not have a visible HP distinction though? Bears have massively more HP than any other class. Warriors are second, face it, someone needs to be last. And I don't mind a 1-1.5k HP difference, that's not -that- massive. What irks me is a 2.5k difference.


Well a distinction is fine to a point, though I'd argue 1.6k is actually pretty signifcant. The problem is that the class that is last, shouldn't also be the class that takes the largest regular hits.


Agreed. I find even 1.2k health an infuriating difference when we also take more damage than a warrior.


You know... What IS our difference in HP? I mean... The best geared Prot warrior in my guild has... 200? 300? more than me... tops. Where do we draw the HP line and focus on increasing SD and BV? And... what exactly should a prot pally with... oh... 13.9k unbuffed health... be tanking?

I can drop my HP from 13.9k unbuffed to about 13.1k (which I guess is still a decent amount) to gain upwards of 80 more SD. But should I? Considering my guild's progression has effectively stopped at Gruul (killing him every week is not a gaurentee)... In kara, I find I have to "downgrade" to more SD.

I'm still looking to replace my Living Ruby Serpent with the Auto-blocker. And I want the Attumen bracers over my current ones. I'm also one card away from the madness deck, which would give me two 51 stam trinkets. And I'd like to get the Gruul's shield.

I'm just hard pressed to know where to go next for ME. My guild... on the other hand... has it's own issues.
Image
Voldiir
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Area 52 Horde

Postby Kvaern » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:36 pm

Voldiir wrote:You know... What IS our difference in HP? I mean... The best geared Prot warrior in my guild has... 200? 300? more than me... tops. Where do we draw the HP line and focus on increasing SD and BV? And... what exactly should a prot pally with... oh... 13.9k unbuffed health... be tanking?


If you need to ask what you should be tanking then Hogger is the likely answer.

Anyhow, you can only compare hitpoints by doing the math.
Warriors got 1200 base life and a 30 stam ranged slot over us and it's irrelevant that your warrior is either worse geared than you or just doesn't know how to gem/enchant his gear.

As for pala hitpoints vs. SD it comes down to exactly what you're tanking, swapping out life for SD on gruul probably isn't wise but on void reaver you want to max SD.
Image
Kvaern
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:45 pm

Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:23 pm

Kvaern wrote:Anyhow, you can only compare hitpoints by doing the math.
Warriors got 1200 base life and a 30 stam ranged slot over us and it's irrelevant that your warrior is either worse geared than you or just doesn't know how to gem/enchant his gear.
.



Or he's a warrior who subscribes to the avoidance school of thought and his avoidance is much better than yours.
Image
Dragonzbane
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:58 am
Location: In the Forums, stirring the pot.

Postby Lore » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:32 pm

Dragonzbane wrote:
Kvaern wrote:Anyhow, you can only compare hitpoints by doing the math.
Warriors got 1200 base life and a 30 stam ranged slot over us and it's irrelevant that your warrior is either worse geared than you or just doesn't know how to gem/enchant his gear.
.



Or he's a warrior who subscribes to the avoidance school of thought and his avoidance is much better than yours.


That would fall under "just doesn't know how to gem/enchant his gear" ;)
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Postby Voldiir » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:52 pm

If you need to ask what you should be tanking then Hogger is the likely answer.


..... Fuck you??

To me it looks like you are the ones picking up fights. When I join or form a PuG people usually ask me what's my spec and what do I do. I simply reply that I'm prot, or I tank. I do not link all my phat loots nor come up with some smart ass sentence telling them they should stfu. I have yet to see someone requesting me to heal or to find a warrior tank and believe me I ran thousands of heroics. I regulary encounter PuG dps warrior who are more than happy to let me tank. I think you should just let your tanking speak for itself. Telling them you have successfully tanked X instance before would help your cause. Usually after or in the middle of a run I get complimented and people are suprised that a paladin can tank well. " Is this heroic ? " " How are you taking so little damage in an heroic ? "

I'm sorry but it seems like protection paladin are themself creating this " Paladins can't tank " thing by coming up with an offensive attitude toward anyone who questions our viability. Usually they are just ignorant and telling them a bit more about our mechanics and the history of what you've tank will let them give you a shot. Then it's up to you to show them what you are capable of.


I, assumingly like you, know how to tank as a paladin. It's common sense to be in the best gear you have, suited to the fight you are in. "Teaching me" how SD should be applied to my own gear does little more than belittle me and piss me off. Telling me to tank Hogger is assinine and quite true to the post that I quoted. It might even be ironic that it upsets me.

I don't need someone to teach me how to tank. I don't need someone to tell me what gear to get or use. I don't need someone to compare and analyze me to the warriors in my guild. I asked a simple question:

what exactly should a prot pally with... 13.9k unbuffed health... be tanking?


And I sure as hell do not need someone to patronize me for asking it.

Let me rephrase (it's after 2am, I'm tired, and your reply makes me want to hurt you. I'll assume it's my fault and that you aren't retarded):

At my gear level of a tank, should I really be in a guild that struggles on Gruul every week and can't down VR or Mag or am I capable of moving on to bigger and better things?

I ask "what can I tank" because I've not been able to experience a lot of content (haven't even been in SSC) and don't really know how much harder the next stuff is. I DO know that I outgear Kara and should probably be moving on.
Image
Voldiir
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Area 52 Horde

Postby Voldiir » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:08 am

Dragonzbane wrote:
Kvaern wrote:Anyhow, you can only compare hitpoints by doing the math.
Warriors got 1200 base life and a 30 stam ranged slot over us and it's irrelevant that your warrior is either worse geared than you or just doesn't know how to gem/enchant his gear.
.



Or he's a warrior who subscribes to the avoidance school of thought and his avoidance is much better than yours.


I have more of both dodge and parry, actually.

And no, it's not irrelevent. It's the whole point.

I'm having to "gear down" to do Karazhan (I find myself running out of mana due to lack of damage taken) effectively and that's pretty much all my guild can do. We've killed Gruul and Maulgar plenty of times, but it's not a guarantee each week. We still wipe a LOT and struggle through it the whole time. We've been attempting VR and Mag for weeks now and have made very little progress.

I seem to be far ahead of most of my guild when it comes to skill and attention paid to gearing.

I come here for advise with a potential gqutting concern, and I get told that it's irrelevant? The hell is that?
Image
Voldiir
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Area 52 Horde

Postby Kvaern » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:07 am

Quit whining, you asked vague questions which means you will get vague answers, and implied the health gap between warriors and paladins is insignificant because some warrior in your guild only has 300 life more than you.
Image
Kvaern
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:45 pm

Postby Voldiir » Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:13 am

Kvaern wrote:Quit whining, you asked vague questions which means you will get vague answers, and implied the health gap between warriors and paladins is insignificant because some warrior in your guild only has 300 life more than you.


I implied that I outgeared the warrior MT of my guild and as such, asked if I was in the right place. It had nothing to do with the HP gap itself.

If you need to ask what you should be tanking then Hogger is the likely answer.

That is not a "vague" answer. It's a dickhead answer. If you want to be a dickhead, that's fine. Just don't do it here.

If you want me to be more specific in what I ask, say so. How hard is it to say "Can you clarify that?" There is no need to be snide. To be honest, I'd rather not be 100% open regarding my guild as I am a long-standing member, officer, RL and MT and am having conflicting feelings about it, it's progression, and my continued membership. I have a lot of extremely close friends there, so forgive me for being a little vague, but I feel uneasy putting my own guild down.

Since my guild isn't progressing, I'm stuck perfecting the current level of gear that I have access to instead of attempting to get "better."

How about... At what point does BV become a better option for gear selection than stacking stam on top of stam? Should I be willing to drop upwards of 350+ health for around 70 BV at my current gear level or would increasing my total health by about 250 more be smarter?

P.S. On a personal note, Kvaern, I don't know what I did to you to deserve your "Holier than thou" attitude. Maybe I caught you on a bad day. Maybe you're just an asshole. Either way, I don't know you and I don't care. But I would advise not doing it. No one wants to read comments that put other people down just so you can feel superior. And IMO, doing so puts strain on your own credibility.
Image
Voldiir
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Area 52 Horde

Postby Kvaern » Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:52 am

You still don't get it, gear selection comes down to the boss you're tanking.

There's no point in asking a generic question such as should I get more BV or should I should I drop X for more SD.

Maybe you should look a little closer to home to find the cause of your guilds issues?

On the personal note, if you're so sensitive you can't handle hogger's name without resorting to violent threats then the internet obviously isn't for you.

QQ more and fuck off.
Image
Kvaern
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:45 pm

Postby Everum » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:10 am

Why is it that you have to reply in such an insulting way? You are inviting an argument with the way you respond. The question is too vague? Well gosh, then tell the person in question so in a normal way without resorting to schoolyard insults?

Or I could take a page from your book and respond in the way you respond to Voldiir.

If you cannot reply without being insulting or inviting arguments, then perhaps being a human being is not for you.

Two options here, I know which one I prefer. How about YOU?
Everum
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:34 am

Postby Lore » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:46 am

Calm down kids, this has been a pretty good thread thus far, I don't want to lock it.
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest