Remove Advertisements

The HP gap...

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Joanadark » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:41 pm

Quit whining, you asked vague questions which means you will get vague answers, and implied the health gap between warriors and paladins is insignificant because some warrior in your guild only has 300 life more than you.


I was a guest helping the guild of several of my ex-<EC> raiders kill maulgar and gruul the other day.
Along with me, there was a protection warrior who had recently quit the third-most-progressed alliance guild and joined that one. Him, a feral druid, and myself were the three tanks in the raid.

Setting up the pull for Maulgar, the prot warrior made a comment along the lines of "We'll need the have the druid tanking Blindeye, because druids have by far the highest front-load threat and we need to be able to start DPSing Blindeye immidiately."

On the verge of being slightly peeved by his comment, I glanced over at the druid who was sitting in bear form.
In bear form, the feral druid had 15449 health, while I was sitting at 15107.

After laughing to myself, I convinced them to alter the tanking assignments by bringing up the fact that the druid could DPS if he wasnt tanking, while I, on the other hand, couldnt really do all that much.

The feral druid got to DPS, he was happy.
The prot warrior got to not have his statement called out and argued over, he was happy.
My hosts got to one-shot maulgar without any problem whatsoever, they were happy.
I got to tank.

My TPS on Blindeye peaked at 1250. I did my job and never lost aggro, while DPS was able to open up after only a second lead.

Next week, I get to be invited back.









There is a "right" way of dealing with these situations.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Lore » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:07 pm

Joanadark wrote:There is a "right" way of dealing with these situations.


Quoted for epic truth.

The "don't be a dick" approach always wins out in the end.
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Postby Voldiir » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:50 pm

gear selection comes down to the boss you're tanking.


I know this. And it still doesn't address my (now reclarified) question.

At what point does BV become a better option for gear selection than stacking stam on top of stam?


Here's a scenario. I can have upwards of 13.9k unbuffed health. But if I don't need that much (just like I don't need over 102.4% avodance) would cutting back down to around 13.5 and adding upwards of 70 more BV be more effective (on any given fight) than simply gaining more and more stam? Would continuing to use the Pocketwatch (even though I outgear it) be better than using another stam trinket? What's the point

I know fights are specific. If I'm taking strikes on Gruul, I'll go with the extra stam. But I've done Gruul already. I already know this. That's not what I'm asking.

I've not been able to experience a lot of content (haven't even been in SSC) and don't really know how much harder the next stuff is.


Is that so vague?

As for the arguement? I do apologize for my part in that. It was almost 3am when I read that and it may have irked me more than usual. But that doesn't make it any less insulting.

At this point, I don't care. I just want to make sure that I'm planning my own gear correctly for future raids (if we ever get there).
Image
Voldiir
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Area 52 Horde

Postby jere » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:33 pm

Voldiir wrote:
How about... At what point does BV become a better option for gear selection than stacking stam on top of stam? Should I be willing to drop upwards of 350+ health for around 70 BV at my current gear level or would increasing my total health by about 250 more be smarter?


Honestly, you need a good mix of both. I tend to aim for a HP pool that seems to be enough for whatever content we are on. Usually boss strats on the web list this.

Block Value tends to favor mobs that hit for less (usually fast ones), so it will outpace stamina in those fights, where stamina favors hard hitters. It is good to have both.

Personally, I err on the side of stamina first, and then BV, but maybe some more experienced guys can answer that better.
Image
User avatar
jere
 
Posts: 2955
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm

Postby Voldiir » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:28 pm

Well I've got 13.9k unbuffed health which, as I said before, is only 2 or 3 hundred behind our best geared warrior. But my BV is only about 350. I currently use two stam trinkets, the vengeance card and the living ruby serpent as I'm already uncrushable. I'm also looking to upgrade my bracers of the green fortress to the attumen bracers.

My biggest concern, immidiately, is whether or not to upgrade the living ruby serpent (33 stam) for the madness card (51) or if I should use the autoblocker instead. Or if I have both... which one would provide more benefit against a boss like Maulgar.

I feel like I have enough health, but that my mitigation is low. So my instinct says auto-blocker.

As I said, I just want to make sure that I'm planning my gear correctly for the future since I have no experience in the Eye or SSC. I would hate to spend time to get items that favor one stat over another, just to later find that I needed the other stat more.
Image
Voldiir
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Area 52 Horde

Postby Joanadark » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:41 pm

Don't look at just Block Value as being specifically flat reductions in damage, look at it as half of "Mitigation".

It and Armor form the two aspects of the mitigation side of your effective health.

You will eventually hit a point with any encounter where you have enough life bar to survive any realistic burst from full health.
That is the point where you stop stacking stamina, though giving yourself a decent lead, and start stacking mitigation.
While still improving your affective health, you will be simultaneously be gaining efficiency and healer-friendliness, which stacking further stamina wouldnt accomplish. Additional stamina merely makes you a bigger sponge, and a bigger healing-soak.

When you start stacking mitigation stats, I find that it is a lot easier effectiveness-wise to stack block value gear than high-armor gear.
The gear is plentiful, and it is available.
Finding ways to incorperate significant amounts of additional AC is harder.

This is the case no matter what the size of the attacks you are receiving.
this factor merely alters up or down the amount of stamina you need to have reached FIRST, not the helpfulness of the Block Value you grab afterwards.
A heavy-hitting boss tanking set will have more stam and less BV than a trash-tanking set because of this prerequisite, not because of any bias of the stats themselves.


The arrow shows the rough potential damage burst the boss you are facing is capable of relative to your health pool. By burst, I dont mean "one-hit", I mean "healer reactable damage spike". There is a difference.

Hard Hitting Boss

[---------minimum stam level-------][-----Mitigation----]
_______________________>



Average Boss

[--minimum stam level---][------Mitigation--------------]
________________>


Trash Mob

[--min stam level--][----------Mitigation-----------------]
___________>




Notice how the distance from the size of the max spike and the top of the stam pool stays the same in each.
Notice also how the total gear level is the same in all three examples.


Now, let's say I get some gear upgrades and come back to tank the same boss a month later...

I should add more mitigation to the end of the scale, not more stam, since I already have sufficient stam and more doesnt really do anything for me.
The portion in parenthesis represents the effect of my gear improvement over time.

After improving gear level:

Hard Hitting Boss on Farm Status

[---------minimum stam level-------][-----Mitigation----(------------)]
_______________________>



If I were to get more stamina instead, the chart looks like this:

Hard Hitting Boss on Farm Status

[---------minimum stam level-------(------------)][-----Mitigation----]
_______________________>


Note that the max spike potential remains in the same place, and the extra stam really does nothing to add to my survivability during the fight.



The point is that, if you never drop below 4k hit points in a fight, that means you have 2k hit points-worth of stats you should have spent in mitigation rather than stamina.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Joanadark » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:05 pm

I decided I liked this post so much I threw it up with some revision on my tankspot blog.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Postby Voldiir » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:58 am

Joanadark wrote:Don't look at just Block Value as being specifically flat reductions in damage, look at it as half of "Mitigation".

It and Armor form the two aspects of the mitigation side of your effective health.

You will eventually hit a point with any encounter where you have enough life bar to survive any realistic burst from full health.
That is the point where you stop stacking stamina, though giving yourself a decent lead, and start stacking mitigation.
While still improving your affective health, you will be simultaneously be gaining efficiency and healer-friendliness, which stacking further stamina wouldnt accomplish. Additional stamina merely makes you a bigger sponge, and a bigger healing-soak.

When you start stacking mitigation stats, I find that it is a lot easier effectiveness-wise to stack block value gear than high-armor gear.
The gear is plentiful, and it is available.
Finding ways to incorperate significant amounts of additional AC is harder.

This is the case no matter what the size of the attacks you are receiving.
this factor merely alters up or down the amount of stamina you need to have reached FIRST, not the helpfulness of the Block Value you grab afterwards.
A heavy-hitting boss tanking set will have more stam and less BV than a trash-tanking set because of this prerequisite, not because of any bias of the stats themselves.


The arrow shows the rough potential damage burst the boss you are facing is capable of relative to your health pool. By burst, I dont mean "one-hit", I mean "healer reactable damage spike". There is a difference.

Hard Hitting Boss

[---------minimum stam level-------][-----Mitigation----]
_______________________>



Average Boss

[--minimum stam level---][------Mitigation--------------]
________________>


Trash Mob

[--min stam level--][----------Mitigation-----------------]
___________>




Notice how the distance from the size of the max spike and the top of the stam pool stays the same in each.
Notice also how the total gear level is the same in all three examples.


Now, let's say I get some gear upgrades and come back to tank the same boss a month later...

I should add more mitigation to the end of the scale, not more stam, since I already have sufficient stam and more doesnt really do anything for me.
The portion in parenthesis represents the effect of my gear improvement over time.

After improving gear level:

Hard Hitting Boss on Farm Status

[---------minimum stam level-------][-----Mitigation----(------------)]
_______________________>



If I were to get more stamina instead, the chart looks like this:

Hard Hitting Boss on Farm Status

[---------minimum stam level-------(------------)][-----Mitigation----]
_______________________>


Note that the max spike potential remains in the same place, and the extra stam really does nothing to add to my survivability during the fight.



The point is that, if you never drop below 4k hit points in a fight, that means you have 2k hit points-worth of stats you should have spent in mitigation rather than stamina.


Great post.

So I guess the next part is figuring out rough number values based on the encounters that exsist, your level of gear as well as how diverse your options are when choosing what to equip per fight.

Like on gruul, having high stam is extremely important due to the randomness of shatter, as well as the consistant increases in damage, and the added cave in damage that you can be unlucky enough to take. Not to mention the strikes if you are strike tanking.

But a boss like Prince, on the other hand, BV can become significantly more important due to the fast attack speeds.

But then... are there minimum values to have, regardless of encounter? When is it safe or encouraged to make "cuts" in our overall staying power to increase our SD?

Say... Hyjal or SSC even. How much unbuffed health would you expect any ole tank passed Kara to have? BV? SD?
Image
Voldiir
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Area 52 Horde

Previous

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest