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The HP gap...

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The HP gap...

Postby Tybalt » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:44 pm

I've been thinking lately that the answer to fixing the HP gap between tankadins and warriors, lies within the improved righteous fury talent.

First, it would have to be moved further down the prot tree, to make it a bit more exclusive to tanking paladins. Having holy and ret paladins running around with the extra hp could very well be unbalancing.

Second, have it either give a scaling % of extra health per point, or a static +400/800/1200hp. I'm afraid that the scaling would be too unfair once we reached even higher levels of hp pools, so I would be fine with the static numbers. An extra 1200hp brings us very nearly inline with our warrior counterparts.

Thoughts?

-Ty
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Postby Iliria » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:10 pm

I'd just like that 1200 hp made up somewhere...don't care where, cause....well if i had 1200 more hp i'd have more hp than our MT...who's a tauren -_-
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Postby Maranus » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:22 pm

Lower HP balances our consistent crush immunity and our ability to hold agro well on an infinite amount of mobs.
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Postby Iliria » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:34 pm

i'd agree to that..if lag didnt allow us to become crushable
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Postby bhullwheyy » Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:29 am

well i dont care about static 1200 extra hp. we just need a modifier which allows us to wear protadingear without having the lack of avoidance or health on it. like "5 int gives 1 stam" or smth. dont like to wear t4 only for trashmob/ae-tanking.

besides itemisation, i think the 2nd big problem are untankable mobs with silence, fear, and manaburn. if they gave us smth to make us deal with them better, i nearly had any complains...well they could raise the duration of holyshield for 0,5 sec.
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Postby Thorogar » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:24 am

Maranus wrote:Lower HP balances our consistent crush immunity
and our ability to hold agro well on an infinite amount of mobs.


If only this would mean something in the endgame. The number of encounters, where protection specced pallies outperform others tanks is too low, if you remove 5-mans from the picture.

If they would increase the number of those encounters, where a pally outperforms druids and warriors, even offtanking or tanking trash, pallies would gain standing with the community and be accepted more often as tanks.
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Postby Thorogar » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:34 am

Though I completely missed the point of this thread in my first post.

I think, a health pool comparable to the warriors would help to make the community realized that pallies are in fact great tanks.
It is far too simple, at the moment, to compare health bars and find that warriors are better tanks.
(In fact, our raidleader once told me that is all he does to compare our tanks. He actually only checked health once in the beginning of a raid, not even taking buffs into account. He didn't know about commanding shout and thought I was actually more than 2,5 k behind the warrior tanks.)

Most people have no clue about the mechanics behind tanking and only compare the most obvious thing. That make HP a major disadvantage and you can change protection all you want, if you don't adress this, it will be a long way to go before the community will accept pallies as raid tanks.
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Postby Karathos » Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:57 am

Thorogar wrote:I think, a health pool comparable to the warriors would help to make the community realized that pallies are in fact great tanks.
It is far too simple, at the moment, to compare health bars and find that warriors are better tanks.

...

Most people have no clue about the mechanics behind tanking and only compare the most obvious thing. ...


I am all for increasing our baseline HP. That baseline HP issue is a two pronged issue however.

One, if it is increased, that would place Ardent Defender at a risk, as it would give too much of a benefit to Paladins. (Effectively making us have more effective HP than warriors in specific situations.)

If we get baseline matches for HP from warriors, then we get 'flagged by the community' as being OP.

If all your raid leader is doing is basing their calculations off 'HP and AC' then by that logic Druids should be the tanking class par excellence and warriors should go off and lolpewpewDPS.

To paraphrase something one of my prior guildies said in an MC run a long while back just before the fire pack pull, "I don't care how much FR you have, it can't fix retarded." Unfortunately people don't have to understand all of the mechanics to be in a leadership position and lead raids.

edit: Wow, that is a lot of If's.....
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Postby Alixander » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:52 am

Also, "fixing" our baseline HP would create a strong case of paladins in non-tanking roles being OP due to too much HP. Think about arenas... holy paladins are already one of the premier healer classes due to high survivability combined with good healing and cleansing. With even more HP it would be ridiculous. I believe the way to fix this issue is to either give a 30 minute buff (maybe combine it with Righteous Fury) or a high tier talent (replace Weapon Expertise) that increases our stamina, but comes at a cost of our intellect. We don't need that much mana when tanking, since we get mana back from healing. This would make the talent bad for ret pallies (already too little mana) and painful for holy pallies, but ideal for us.
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hrm

Postby Mavrix » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:15 am

An alternative way to do it would be to give us HP (some % formula) from our spelldamage or (probably better) intellect - obviously would need to be a deep prot talent, e.g. in place of weapon expertise.
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Postby Arcand » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:18 am

A lot of that can be addressed by putting this hypothetical ability deep enough in the Protection tree, though. A paladin who's 35-deep in Prot isn't likely to turn the tide of an arena battle with his healing, and won't be a DPS champion either.

It also keeps everyone from grabbing the extra health and becoming a beast at tanking 5-mans; the only ones who would (or could) grab this would be the lunatic fringe (/wave) who want to tank the big boys with skulls where their level's supposed to be.
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Postby Myotis » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:27 am

Karathos wrote:One, if it is increased, that would place Ardent Defender at a risk, as it would give too much of a benefit to Paladins.


This is often used to prevent buffs to paladins or to prove that they are equal to warriors. What if your healers keeps you over 35% for the whole fight ? Where is that "effective" hp boost ?

I'd much rather have a bigger health pool and no AD.

Let's remove Ardent Defender. Imo it has always been flawed. They tried to fix it last patch, they should just get rid of it.
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Postby honorshammer » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:47 am

We need something we can point to and say

Mr. Raid Leader, you should use your Paladins on this type of boss because they can Y, so it gives you the easiest/best chance of winning with a Paladin tank. Now when you face this other type of boss, you should use Warriors, because they can Z, so it gives you the easiest/best chance of winning with a Warrior Tank. Now should you face this other type of boss, man, are you going to wish you had a Bear Druid to be your tank. Bears can do X, so they give you the best/easiest chance of winning against that type of boss.

Or

You know you should have a Palaind on Phase 1 because the boss does A, and Paladins can X, but for Phase 2, get your Warrior in there. The boss does B, so you want a Warrrior for Y. Then Phase 3 hits, get your Druid in there, cause that Boss is gonna C, and you want your druid cause he can Z.
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Postby hamerhead » Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:43 pm

I agree with the missing health and I also agree with the talent needing to be deep in the protect tree or even linked to a crruent talent.

other ideas I have are to covert all str on gear to Int/spelldmg via a talent so we can use tank gear with atr and its not useless.

I still run into the same issue though when it comes down to who is tankign what. Yes you could tank and you may have better gear but what do we do witht he protect warrior who cant really do anything else? Pretty annoying but its something we have to deal with since we can help out in more than just the MT position.

I would also be very happy if they let protect palis get the old Spritual attunement back so if we get overhealed we get mana(or at least 5% on overheals) but thats a whole other agrument
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Postby Strom » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:59 pm

I think Blizzard likes us as the lowest HP tank. Which is fine, someone has to be! But they need to make sure its not such a game-breaker for us :(

I would rather see us have more synergy in our caster type stats (more block rating/value from Int?).

I would also like to see another "Oh Shit!" button.... maybe convert the Divine Protection spell into a sort of shield wall type ability (but different obviously).

These are the things we need I think.
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