Let's say you WANT to be Crushable...

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Let's say you WANT to be Crushable...

Postby Samildanach » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:57 am

This weekend we're going into karaz for the first time. Me being the best geared tank of my guild will probably tank (it's my call who tanks) unless we're short of healers (everyone's on holiday) in which case I'll respec holy for a day.

In my uncrushable gear I am 5% away from being immune with 10.3k health. The Libram would sort that but I still need 12 more badges. Now I started looking at some of the other tanks in my guild and noticed the warrior tanks have roughly 1000+ health over me, whilst being uncrittible.

It seems to me that getting uncrushable costs us a lot in the early raiding stages. Could you not deliberately leave yourself open to say 1%-2% of crushing blows to increase your stamina significantly. This would also help getting mana back, as I've read of people who deliberately leave Holy Shield down to eat a crushing blow to gain back a big heal and mana cos they not getting hurt enough.

Yes it *could* wipe the raid, but I figure it's no different from a warrior who loses his shield block charges or a druid eating crushing after crushing.

For example you could swap out any number of well know +Defence trinkets in favour of the new Darkmoon trinkets that give 51 stamina each! That's a lot of stamina from one slot.

Thought on this guys & gals?

Sam
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Postby Kyroro » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:23 am

I've deliberately taken crushing blows before simply because I avoided attacks for almost 20s straight. That's kind of crazy but with a dice it's not impossible. Just make sure you do it when your health is already topped off. CBs can make your health spike, so your healers definitely need an advance warning.

However if you're just starting out in KZ I doubt you'll have enough avoidance for it to be a genuine problem. Your health will be spiking enough already without deliberately taking more damage.

In your position, I'd just get uncrushable first and focus more on your boss strategies. You can work on problems one at a time. I'd say your crushing blow issue would be at the very bottom of your list of worries.
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Re: Let's say you WANT to be Crushable...

Postby Karathos » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:30 am

Samildanach wrote:It seems to me that getting uncrushable costs us a lot in the early raiding stages. Could you not deliberately leave yourself open to say 1%-2% of crushing blows to increase your stamina significantly.


Is is more than possible to acheive uncrushable (with HS up) without any Heroic or KZ gear. (And without the +Block Rating Libram.)

Remember that each crushing blow that you eat is 150% harder than a normal blow. In the Attumen the Huntsman fight (which will usually be your first fight, and is basically a gearing test for the rest of the instance) he hits for between 1.6k and 2.1k normally on plate. Which means that he will crush for 2.4k to 3.15k ... so you want to OPT to take between 800 and 1050 MORE damage at random intervals than is necessary?

Just how much additional stamina are you planning on putting on there that you feel comfortable eating more spike damage? (More of a retorical question than one you have to answer us ... at the very least you should consider asking this of yourself, but please elaborate if you feel the need.)

Just another couple numbers to think about as you ask this question .... at a minimum you would NEED to have more than 105 more stamina to soak one crushing blow (on the upper end). And, as something else to ponder about 3150 is the totality of buff coverage for AD at 9000hp (Mind you I am at ~12-13k raid buffed in KZ so it may not be as applicable). So, if you were at 3151 and then got crushed ... you'd likely be dead. And a Crush followed by a shadow cleave (@ ~4k) would do potentially 7150 ... Compared to closer to 5600-6100 for that combo.

Personally, I can't recommend allowing yourself to be crushable in gear on purpose.

(If you are only 1-2% away then get some of the +35 agility pots, and some of the +20 agility food.)

edit: If you are uncrushable, and you CHOOSE to take a crush because you far outgear the boss that is a personal decision between you and your healers. But gearing to take crushes is irresponsible as an MT when you are able to push them off the table. Oh, and if you are THAT close to uncrushable then you've likely already pushed regular hits off the hit table, so anything that you don't Blocked/Dodged/Parried or that they Miss would then be a Crush.
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Postby Questioner » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:48 am

Don't get under the impression that it is impossible to take crushing blows and survive a fight. Yes, it is your responsibility to do your best to gear to avoid them, but I've tanked the first half of Kara while still being 3-4% crushable, and tanked 3 bosses as holy, too.
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Postby Jaydin » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:38 am

one quick correction - crushing blows technically arent any different from regular hits - they are regular hits that 15% of the time crush...so that doesnt mean that if u have 2% open to regular hits that each one is going to be crushing... even if you have .1% open 15% of .1% unmitigated hits will be crushing blows, not 100% of that .1%
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Postby Lore » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:40 am

Jaydin wrote:one quick correction - crushing blows technically arent any different from regular hits - they are regular hits that 15% of the time crush...so that doesnt mean that if u have 2% open to regular hits that each one is going to be crushing... even if you have .1% open 15% of .1% unmitigated hits will be crushing blows, not 100% of that .1%


Actually it does, because of how the attack table works. If you have a 2% gap, that 2% is filled by "Crushing Blow" not "Hit".
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Postby Mortehl » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:41 am

In Kara, aside from the NB and Prince fights, it is fine for you to be crushable.

Before you fight Nightbane and Prince you want to make sure that it is you that is controlling when you take a crushing blow. There have been times I have deliberately not renewed Holy Shield because of Dodge, Dodge, Parry, Dodge, Dodge, Miss, et cetera for almost 30+ seconds in a row. On those two fights you can't afford to screw around. You can be wtfpwned by both of them before you know what hits you.
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Postby Jaydin » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:42 am

Lore wrote:
Jaydin wrote:one quick correction - crushing blows technically arent any different from regular hits - they are regular hits that 15% of the time crush...so that doesnt mean that if u have 2% open to regular hits that each one is going to be crushing... even if you have .1% open 15% of .1% unmitigated hits will be crushing blows, not 100% of that .1%


Actually it does, because of how the attack table works. If you have a 2% gap, that 2% is filled by "Crushing Blow" not "Hit".


shiznit really? ouchie...
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Postby Everlight » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:05 pm

Jaydin wrote:Actually it does, because of how the attack table works. If you have a 2% gap, that 2% is filled by "Crushing Blow" not "Hit".


shiznit really? oucie...[/quote]

Yep, so the result here is that if you've pushed off everything except 5% crush, every non-blocked hit you receive will be a crush.

Sounds a lot worse than it is, but yeah, 5% of all attacks attempted against you will be crushes.
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Postby Aergis » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:23 pm

I wouldn't say I could recommend it as the way to go, but there's more factors here to consider. How much HP would you be gaining by doing so? Which bosses are we talking about? etc.

If you only gain 500 hp, it's definately not worth it. If you can find swaps to gain like 1500-2000 hp, it worth considering for the first half of Kara where things dont hit that bad anyway. Example, a crush from huntsman is still less than a regular block from nightbane.

I guess the way to think of it is as a percentage of your total HP. You have 10.3k hp, so lets say a regular blocked attack from moroes deals 1000. Thats 10% of your total HP in one hit.

Now lets add 2000 hp, so you have 12.3k. If that same 1,000 attack crushes it's now at 1500, and that's now only 12.2% of your total health. But if crushes only happens 2-3% of the time, the majority of the attacks will be only 8% of your total HP.

It could be worth it, depending on how much HP you are gaining and how hard the mob is hitting for. As the damage per hit increases, the amount of stamina you'd have to make up remains proportional, so I can't see this being of any use after say, 4k damage per hit, but thats a random estimate.
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Postby Karathos » Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:27 pm

Aergis wrote:I wouldn't say I could recommend it as the way to go, but there's more factors here to consider. How much HP would you be gaining by doing so? Which bosses are we talking about? etc.

...

It could be worth it, depending on how much HP you are gaining and how hard the mob is hitting for. As the damage per hit increases, the amount of stamina you'd have to make up remains proportional, so I can't see this being of any use after say, 4k damage per hit, but thats a random estimate.


When you're saying 4k damage per hit, is that a regular hit? Or a CB? (i.e. That damage would CB for an additional 2k? for a total damage of 6k?)

As for Moroes, he hits for between 1600-2500 damage on plate wearers (according to WowHead/WowWiki). Which means that on the high side, he'll potentially hit for 3750 (on the high end) for crushes. (i.e. You will randomly take an additional 800-1250 damage on X% of the hits on you, where X is the amount you are crushable by.)

And don't forget that you can still be crushed when you have HS down (or you are in that time between when it goes down and that short time before you hit the button and it activates again) and when you are stunned, or disoriented or disarmed (i.e. when you can't dodge, block or parry) or your enemy is behind you. So you are never always 100% uncrushable, you're just situationally 100% uncrushable.
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Postby Samildanach » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:07 am

At the moment in my very best crushing gear I can sit at 4.43% crushable (with no buffs, and still don't have my libram yet). But at only 10.3k health unbuffed.

My personal preference atm, because the bosses don't hit too hard yet is to swap out Andormu's tear and Felsteel leggings for Violet Signet and Timewardens to gain about 700ish HP and still being only 7%ish crushable before buffs.

But that's just me, I have faith in my healers to keep me up and this early in Karaz I think stam is more important than getting zero uncrushable, especially when it's only a gap of 3% for me. I do realise that come the hard hitting bosses the crushability story changes, with for example Prince. But by that time I will have my libram and some upgrades and will be ready for him.
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Danathiel lvl 70 ret/holy 20/0/41
Ballin lvl 50 Holy

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Postby Vanifae » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:34 pm

I say you hate your healers.
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Postby Everlight » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:12 pm

The problem with that theory is spikes kill tanks.

If you are 7% crushable and only have 11k hitpoints, there will come a time where you'll just get spiked to death before anyone can do anything about it.

Matter of fact, when your hitpoints are low, it's even more important you are uncrushable, because each crush you receive represents a larger proportion of your total hitpoints and thus represents a larger risk of getting spiked down.

That's actually why Druids don't worry about crushes - they have high enough mitigation and hitpoints that each crush represents only a small portion of their hitpoints, so it's not so much of an issue.
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:42 pm

I like to think of losing crush immunity as a 33% penalty to stamina.
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