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Imp SoR vs Reckoning

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Imp SoR vs Reckoning

Postby Voldiir » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:22 pm

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Is my current build (10/41/10)

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Is the one I've been thinking about...

Now as a horde side pally, I can't use SoV. Meaning SoR is not only my "bread and butter", but it's my only choice. That's why I went with this build as it makes SoR (and JoR) more powerful.

Now I know alli pallies may see reckoning as "way better" because they use SoV (not all of them, probably) and more hits means more stacking the debuff (0/49/12 is still quite popular as the "cookie cutter" build).

I guess my question is: without taking SoV into consideration, which would produce more threat... +15% SoR/JoR damage? Or Reckoning procs? If it matters, I currently have 246 spelldamage unbuffed.
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Postby Noradin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:43 am

Reckoning is better for allianz side pallies because of SoR (and JoW, JoL), not because of SoV.
They take one handed specialization if they want to use SoV or want max thread (unless they need more mana).

Imp SoR/JoR takes 10 points to get - thats too expensive IMO.


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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:19 am

Erm, one misnomer I should clear up is that faster hits != faster SoV stacks necessarily. SoV is on a fixed proc rate of 20 procs per minute, so wether you hit 20 times, 30 times or 60 time in one minute, it will only stack 20 times .

As the poster before me said, Reckoning is probably better for SoR, where you have guaranteed damage/swing.
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Postby Kvaern » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:57 am

Ulushnar wrote:Erm, one misnomer I should clear up is that faster hits != faster SoV stacks necessarily. SoV is on a fixed proc rate of 20 procs per minute, so wether you hit 20 times, 30 times or 60 time in one minute, it will only stack 20 times .


Actually you got it wrong ;p

The proc chance per hit is based on your base weapon speed thus any haste or doubleswing buffs will make it proc more than 20 times a minute.

As for reckoning and SoV then the synergy between these two talents is far from great because once you have 5 stacks going on the target any reckoning procs are pretty much wasted, only giving you some extra white damage.
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Postby Downpour » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:06 am

This is correct.
Procs per minute evaluates into a flat percentage when you're unbuffed.
A 3.0 speed weapon on a 20ppm seal/enchant becomes a 100% chance per swing. Whatever you now do to increase your swing rate - reckoning, haste, wind fury, etc - will maintain that 100% chance of a proc per swing.
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:30 am

Ah, you learn something every day. :)
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:31 am

Check out my post on where our threat comes from:

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... .php?t=599

I still need to remember to run this for Curator or Mag's adds, but basically it looks like Reckoning is better for 5 man content and the talent are on par for raid content. When you consider that Imp SoR is more or less a 10 point talent for us (Divine Int isn't awful, but I certainly wouldn't pick it up if I wasn't going further in Holy), I think reckoning is a much better option for us.
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Postby Phasek » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:52 am

I've eyed up imp. seal of righteousness many times wondering if I could somehow squeeze it in to my build. Every time after playing with it I come to the same conclusion though. I consider 5/5 deflection from ret a must, meaning there would only be 41 points left for protection and I wouldn't be able to get the 2/2 imp. judgement. Divine intellect has never impressed me much seeing how it's only about 20 int with my gear set.

I would, however, be curious if anyone has math on imp. seal of righteousness vs. precision + 1h weap spec + imp. judgement.
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Postby Phasek » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:12 pm

Ok I decided after my last post that I was being lazy and pulled out my calculator. This was touched upon by Maulininis in April, but here's what I have:

In order to crunch the numbers I'm assuming average tank gear, 100-180 white damage, 1.8 attack speed, 200 damage/healing. I'm not sure on the bonus from damage/healing with seal/judgement of righteousness, but I'm seeing about 82 per hit from seal, 375 per hit from judgement (without 1h spec). I might come back and edit this when I find exact % bonuses for these abilities from +spell damage.

As far as improved judgement goes I'm going to use a 40 second sample since that's the lowest common denominator for 8 and 10.

In order to get imp. seal of righteousness, a tankadin could lose either 1h weapon spec or reckoning (as per the topic). The math on recknoning is tricky but here we go. When a mob attacks, a paladin has roughly a 50% chance of taking damage varying with gear. When taking damage, there's a 10% chance to double the swings over the next 10 seconds. The trickiness with the math comes in because of procs that refresh reckoning while it's already active. I think the best way to approach this is to figure out what the chance that reckoning has NOT procced over the last 10 seconds. So:
First the mob has a 0.5 chance to hit.
Second the mob has a 0.1 chance on a hit to proc reckoning
0.1*0.9 = 0.05 so a mob has a 5% chance to proc reckoning per swing.
therefor a mob has a 95% chance to not proc reckoning per swing.
if x is the mob's attack speed, the amount of swings per 10 seconds is 10/x.
therefor, the chance that reckoning is not up at any given time is 0.95^10/x.
examples:
mob attack speed 1.0: chance to not have reckoning up is 59.9% or 40.1% to have it up.
mob attack speed 2.0: chance to not have reckoning up is 77.4% or 22.6% to have it up.
mob attack speed 3.0: chance to not have reckoning up is 84.3% or 15.7% to have it up.
Once the chance to have reckoning up is determined, the math is simple. Since the swings are doubled, add 100% to the reckoning chance and multiply it to your swing damage.

Over a 40 second interval on a level 73 mob without imp. seal of righteousness, imp. judgement, reckoning, precision, or 1h weapon spec we have the following:
40/1.8 = 22.22 swings, 91.4% chance to hit so 22.22*.914 = 20.31 hits, 20.31*140 = 2843.56 white damage, 20.31*82 = 1665.51 holy damage from seal, 40/10 = 4 judgements at 84% chance to hit, 4*.84 = 3.36 judgements, 3.36*375 = 1260 holy damage from judgements. Total amount is 2843.56 white damage for 2843.56 threat, and 2925.51 holy damage for 5558.47 threat, combined 5769.07 damage for 8402.03 threat.

Common spec options to look at are imp seal and 1h weapon spec, imp seal and precision and 2/5 1h weapon spec, imp seal and reckoning, or everything but improved seal.

First, imp seal and 1h weapon spec, for the record I have never tested this so I'm not positive how the math works. I'm going to assume that you get a 20% bonus from seal and judgement and a 5% bonus from melee, PLEASE correct me if this is innaccurate.
40/1.8 = 22.22 swings, 91.4% chance to hit so 22.22*.914 = 20.31 hits, 140 average white damage +5% bonus so 140*1.05 = 147 damage, 20.31*147 = 2985.73 white damage, 82 damage per seal +20% so 82*1.2 = 98.4 holy damge, 20.31*98.4 = 1998.61 holy damage from seal, 40/10 = 4 judgements at 84% chance to hit, 4*.84 = 3.36 judgements, 375 judgement damage +20% so 375*1.2 = 450 holy damage, 3.36*450 = 1512 holy damage from judgements. Total amount is 2985.73 white damage for 2985.73 threat, and 3510.61 holy damage for 6670.16 threat, combined 6496.34 damage for 9655.89 threat.

Second, imp seal, precision, and 2 points in 1h weapon spec. Using the same assumption as above, 17% bonus to seal and judgement and a 2% bonus to melee.
40/1.8 = 22.22 swings, 94.4% chance to hit so 22.22*.944 = 20.98 hits, 140 average white damage +2% bonus so 140*1.02 = 142.8 damage, 20.98*142.8 = 2995.63 white damage, 82 damage per seal +17% so 82*1.17 = 95.94 holy damge, 20.98*95.94 = 2012.61 holy damage from seal, 40/10 = 4 judgements at 84% chance to hit, 4*.84 = 3.36 judgements, 375 judgement damage +17% so 375*1.17 = 438.75 holy damage, 3.36*438.75 = 1474.2 holy damage from judgements. Total amount is 2995.63 white damage for 2995.63 threat, and 3486.81 holy damage for 6624.94 threat, combined 6482.44 damage for 9620.57 threat.

Third, imp seal and reckoning. The best way to calculate reckoning is to add the % based on the end, I'll provide 3 final values for 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0 mob attack speeds. Since all values will be going up by the same rate for reckoning, they can be calculated together.
40/1.8 = 22.22 swings, 91.4% chance to hit so 22.22*.914 = 20.31 hits, 20.31*140 = 2843.56 white damage, 82 damage per seal +15% so 82*1.15 = 94.3 holy damge, 20.31*94.3 = 1915.34 holy damage from seal, 40/10 = 4 judgements at 84% chance to hit, 4*.84 = 3.36 judgements, 375 judgement damage +15% so 375*1.15 = 431.25 holy damage, 3.36*431.25 = 1449 holy damage from judgements amounting to 2753.1 threat. Total amount is 2985.73 white damage for 2985.73 threat, and 1915.34 holy damage from seal only for 3639.15 threat, combined without judgements is 4901.07 damage for 6624.88 threat.
Mob attack speed:
1.0: 4901.07*1.401 = 6866.4 damage + 1449 judgement damage is 8315.4 total damage, 6624.88*1.401 = 9281.46 threat + 2753.1 judgement threat is 12,034.56 total threat.
2.0: 4901.07*1.226 = 6008.71 damage + 1449 judgement damage is 7457.71 total damage, 6624.88*1.226 = 8122.1 threat + 2753.1 judgement threat is 10,875.2 total threat.
3.0: 4901.07*1.157 = 5670.54 damage + 1449 judgement damage is 7119.54 total damage, 6624.88*1.157 = 7664.99 threat + 2753.1 judgement threat is 10,418.09 total threat.

The last and most common spec is precision, 1h weapon spec, reckoning, and imp judgement. As with the last spec I'll calculate it for 3 mob attack speeds.
40/1.8 = 22.22 swings, 94.4% chance to hit so 22.22*.944 = 20.98 hits, 140 average white damage +5% bonus so 140*1.05 = 147 damage, 20.98*147 = 3084.06 white damage, 82 damage per seal +5% so 82*1.05 = 86.1 holy damge, 20.98*86.1 = 1806.38 holy damage from seal, 40/8 = 5 judgements at 84% chance to hit, 5*.84 = 4.2 judgements, 375 judgement damage +5% so 375*1.2 = 393.75 holy damage, 4.2*393.75 = 1653.75 holy damage from judgements amounting to 3142.13 threat. Total amount from non judgements is 3084.06 white damage for 3084.06 threat, and 1806.38 holy damage from seal for 3432.12 threat, combined 4890.44 damage for 6516.18 threat.
Mob attack speed:
1.0: 4890.44*1.401 = 6851.51 damage + 1653.75 judgement damage is 8505.26 total damage, 6516.18*1.401 = 9129.17 threat + 3142.13 judgement threat is 12,271.3 total threat.
2.0: 4890.44*1.226 = 5995.68 damage + 1653.75 judgement damage is 7649.43 total damage, 6516.18*1.226 = 7988.84 threat + 3142.13 judgement threat is 11,130.97 total threat.
3.0: 4890.44*1.157 = 5658.24 damage + 1653.75 judgement damage is 7311.99 total damage, 6516.18*1.157 = 7539.22 threat + 3142.13 judgement threat is 10,681.35 total threat.


Ok so after all that mess, here is the recap that I found over 40 seconds of fighting a level 73 mob:
imp seal and 1h weapon spec: 6496.34 damage for 9655.89 threat.
imp seal, precision, and 2/5 1h weapon spec: 6482.44 damage for 9620.57 threat.
imp seal and reckoning: 8315.4 damage and 12,034.56 threat at a 1.0 mob attack speed, 7119.54 damage and 10,418.09 threat at a 3.0 mob attack speed.
precision, 1h weapon spec, reckoning, and imp judgement: 8505.26 damage for 12,271.3 threat at a 1.0 mob attack speed, 7311.99 damage and 10,681.35 threat at a 3.0 mob attack speed.

Some of my equations for game mechanics might be slightly innaccurate and I can change them if someone corrects me. Even if 1h weapon spec only affects white damage and righteousness, like in my math, it seems that the improved seal of righteousness is not worth the 10 talent points required to attain it by my math. Calculus is my speciaty, and while I didn't use any in these equations, I believe the theory is accurate, especially for reckoning.

Possible questions I have that there may be flaws in: what abilities 1h weapon spec affects, how 1h weapon spec and imp seal of righteousness would stack (I assume it doesn't actually come out to a 20% boost, it would by a 20.75% boost if they're multiplied, which will not make a lot of difference in the final numbers).
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Postby Maulininis » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:24 pm

That last post screwed with my head something shocking :p

I did the maths once, somewhat casually, but it works out that @ 200 spl dmg or somethin around there, imp judgement is > imp SoR, but that's without 1h weapon spec, and reckoning. Not sure how it'd go after that.

This relates to reckoning coz without imp SoR, you're not getting the most out of reckoning... Reckoning's obviously still good, but passing up imp judgements means 2 more seconds between aggro spikes, 2 more seconds a mob can be belting on a clothie if ur BoP and taunt is down, etc etc... I'd rather gimp my reckoning without imp SoR and keep imp judgement :p
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Postby Phasek » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:33 am

I apologize, my last post ended up being way too big to want to read. The main point if it is that imp seal of righteousness is a great talent, but it's simply not worth the 10 points of talens for prot and ret that a tankadin would have to sacrifice. My proof is in my math, if anyone cares that much.

The thing that's still bugging me though is reckoning, I've missed a variable that is attack speed. It doesn't change much, but I'm too much of a perfectionist to let it go untouched and I will address it in another thread.
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Postby kurros » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:53 am

Imp judgment I think is mostly wasted talent points. You can only judge every 10 seconds anyway, unless you are willing to delay your holyshield refreshes, which IMO is a bad idea.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Phasek » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:05 pm

that's not entirely true. judgement isn't on the global cd, so generally I find myself in situations where I do judgement > HS > seal.
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Postby Druski » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:46 am

Phasek, I am impressed with your number crunching, but am curious to know how another spec would rate up against your several you've already posted.

currently I am specced with reckoning as well as improved seal of righteousness. A respectable spec, but as we see here, could be improved upon. In that line of thought, I glanced over at the ret tree, and am wondering if those 10 holy points were spent elsewhere, how things would stack up.

here's my thought: (no longer having divine int and imp SoR, while maintaining reckoning)

2/2 improved judgement
3/5 1h weapon spec
3/3 (here's my big question) vindication
2/2 eye for an eye (because im dying to have that for my occasional pvp)

clearly the eye for an eye isnt helping much for threat, and I could put those 2 points in 1h spec, but primairly I am wondering if the vindication (when it procs) having the lowered str may result in reducing damage taken, and the lowered agil reducing the enemy's dodge (which in turn may be a reverse-effect percision skill, but benefits an entire raid)

So i guess im hoping to see numbers for all of that and probably want to see the numbers if i had a full 5v5 1h, to know what i'd be giving up for pvp. if you decide to pull out your calculator for all this, i'd be grateful.
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Postby Daromire » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:17 am

vindication does not work on boss mobs or most raid instance mobs (damn you blizzard, wtb a thunderclap type ability!)
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