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Threat Anomolies?

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Threat Anomolies?

Postby Moshne » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:39 pm

Okay, I want to first start off with saying that this is not a question about paladin tanking mechanics. We run with three separate pally tanks for ZA/Kara runs (and one is our "main" pally tank for Hyjal.) There playstyle and skill is not the question here.

My question is inconsistencies in the threat generation. I am wondering if there are some bugs in paladin threat generation. Have any of you seen your threat considerably lower than it should be without a cause (you don't have salv on, you are speced right, RF is up, the usual suspects ruled out.)

One incident we had was doing Prince in Kara. (For reference, I am an elemental shaman, so I get to test the threat boundaries of these guys pretty hard.) We were running three or four paladins on the run, I don't recall, but the end result was that we were casting Salv on the tankadin, and having him just click it off. It was getting clicked off - so that is not the cause, so on further attempts after we wiped, we stopped clicking off Salv, and instead overwrote it with Might. Obviously Might is not a 600 TPS increase, or not even close, but that was about the difference we saw in attempts. The assumption is that the /cancelaura command is not removing Salv properly when used in conjunction with RF?

Anyone else have anecdotes along these lines that I could test? Any general observations?
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Postby Shirak » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:57 pm

I have found on certain mobs that just because I am in range to melee, I may not be in range to hit with consecrate. Prince is a great example. Against the wall, he stops at melee range, but he is outside of consecrate range, you have to take a couple steps closer.

If their threat is suddenly much lower than it should be, have them get closer to the boss/mob and see if it suddenly goes up.
Tuberon wrote:Tanking *is* crowd control.

You run into a crowd, and proceed to control it.
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Postby Arcand » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:34 pm

He didn't forget Righteous Fury, did he?

I haven't forgotten it on Malchezaar yet, but I forgot in heroic Arcatraz the other night and burned RD and BoP before I figured out what the problem was.
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Postby Moshne » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:48 pm

Arcand wrote:He didn't forget Righteous Fury, did he?

I haven't forgotten it on Malchezaar yet, but I forgot in heroic Arcatraz the other night and burned RD and BoP before I figured out what the problem was.


No, as I mentioned above, its nothing simple like that. There is something wonky going on, the consecration positioning might be it, but we've seen it on fights like the Eagle in ZA and Zuljin as well, neither of which get walled.
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Postby Lektor » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:02 pm

I've seen something like this happen, and I can't explain it either. I know for sure I had Righteous Fury and nothing like Salv on me, but for the life of me could not pass 600 tps on a solid threat rotation on Prince. I was definitely on top of the guy, consecrate was hitting for sure. We wiped on that attempt due to an infernal landing too close to healers, but the next try (with the same exact buffs, players, and consumables) I had no problem hitting 800-900 tps.

Edit: Also forgot to mention this occasionally happens in different locations. As if RF is not calculating the correct threat for my attacks.
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Postby rodos » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:28 pm

Lektor wrote:I've seen something like this happen, and I can't explain it either. I know for sure I had Righteous Fury and nothing like Salv on me, but for the life of me could not pass 600 tps on a solid threat rotation on Prince. I was definitely on top of the guy, consecrate was hitting for sure. We wiped on that attempt due to an infernal landing too close to healers, but the next try (with the same exact buffs, players, and consumables) I had no problem hitting 800-900 tps.

Edit: Also forgot to mention this occasionally happens in different locations. As if RF is not calculating the correct threat for my attacks.

Where do the threat numbers come from? If it's a threat meter, then it can't know what RF is doing beyond what it's programmed to do. If anything, these oddities sound like bugs in the threat meter (missing a salv click-off or not picking up imp. RF). Has anyone seen the same DPS pulling mobs in one case and not in another?
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Postby Magnusharkov » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:32 am

prince is incredibly hard to hit with consecrate. The only time I've ever seen wonky threat is on prince. Chances are its just his broken hitbox.
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Postby Faylinn » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:17 am

Last night i was noticing some odd issues. but have not pinned it down. We were doing a split run, SSC/TK all through SSC the dps were pulling off of me my RD was on constant cool down. I have never had an issue before, and am usually 10K+ threat above them.

When we switched to TK, everything went back to normal. No buffs were changed. I kept the same rotation, etc...

It may just be a case of them gaining more control as the night went on, but it was weird...I have never had to struggle to hold agg before...
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Postby sapientialb » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:35 am

Thanks for the note on Prince and Cons... Maybe that was my issue with the wonky sudden enfeeble I got hit with just at the beginning of phase 2 on our first attempt last night.
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Postby Shirak » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:22 am

sapientialb wrote:Thanks for the note on Prince and Cons... Maybe that was my issue with the wonky sudden enfeeble I got hit with just at the beginning of phase 2 on our first attempt last night.


Did you have a hunter misdirect by chance? There is a bug that can happen when you do this.
Tuberon wrote:Tanking *is* crowd control.

You run into a crowd, and proceed to control it.
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Postby anowyn » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:06 pm

Can you elaborate on that MD bug?

My guild has been having trouble with te dragonhawk pulls in The Eye using MD.
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Postby Antharas » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:45 pm

Shirak wrote:
sapientialb wrote:Thanks for the note on Prince and Cons... Maybe that was my issue with the wonky sudden enfeeble I got hit with just at the beginning of phase 2 on our first attempt last night.


Did you have a hunter misdirect by chance? There is a bug that can happen when you do this.


the assumption that the bug only shows up when MDed is pretty far fetched. I personally have never had it happen when MD pulling.

The bug happens because when phase 2 starts he does not have a target for a split second while summoning his weapons. during this split second if enfeeble hits there is a 50% chance the tank can get bitch slapped with it.

for ur bird pulls in TK, get them all to you, and have wings+conc down right at the start, along with a hunter slow trap. make sure u have 1 priest dedicated to mass dispelling to clear the silences
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Postby anowyn » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:45 pm

Ok, that mass dispelling comment was a total eureka bulb, thanks!

As for positioning, we pull them back through the hall to a previous room. I think this is a bit too far, but with the hunter mobs in the hall, quarter would be tight. Any suggestions on better places to tank the hawks?
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Postby Shirak » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:29 pm

We have been tanking them right at the entrance to the bridge from the main platform.
Tuberon wrote:Tanking *is* crowd control.

You run into a crowd, and proceed to control it.
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Postby Quarm » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:56 am

This past week I got nailed with the "WTF I GOT ENFEEBLED?!?!" bug also, but didn't realize what had happened since I was CLEARLY leading the threat meter and we were' rockin him hard.

BAM
dead.

I had no clue how I got enfeebled, and nobody else could figure it out either. We went right back and smacked him, and just sorta shrugged our shoulders.

Thanks for enlightening.
-Q

With regard to the birds in TK.. gotta try the mass dispel thing. I usually tank them in the hallway while constantly walking backwards into a corner to keep myself predictably positioned, and slipping in consecrates between silences.
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