Paladin OT threat vs. Warrior OT threat

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Paladin OT threat vs. Warrior OT threat

Postby Lore » Wed May 30, 2007 10:53 am

Let's compare a bit.

Paladin offtanks are limited by two factors: Mana and the loss of Holy Shield. Warrior offtanks are limited in a similar fashion by Rage and the loss of Revenge. If you remove incoming damage from the equation, that makes the mana/rage generation numbers look like this:

Paladin:
10 mana/sec (50 mana/5) from imp BoW, assuming there is a holy pally in the raid
~20 mana/sec from JoW, assuming a 1.8 speed weapon
~20 mana/sec from Super Mana Pots (average yield of 2400 mana, 2 minute cooldown)
for the purpose of argument, I'll assume there's no mana tide shaman or shadow priest in the Paladin's group.
= total of 50 mana/sec

Warrior:
3.5 rage/sec from white damage (rage formula is 3.5 x weapon speed for a main hand hit as of patch 2.0.10)
~0.5 rage/sec from Imp. Bloodrage (total of 26 rage, 1 min cooldown)
~1 rage/sec from Mighty Rage Potions if the Warrior is so inclined
= total of 5 rage/sec

Let's assume both tanks are capable of 800 threat per second if they're MT'ing (taking damage, everything is on cooldown). Paladins lose Holy Shield threat, which according to Dorvan's numbers in the other thread is about 25% of that. That leaves the Paladin at 600 TPS if he keeps SoR up, and JoR and Consecrate on cooldown. In order to do that, he needs to spend the following amount of mana:

Judgement: 124 mana every 8 seconds (15.5 mana/sec)
SoR: 221 mana after every judgement (27.625 mana/sec)
Consecration: 660 mana every 8 seconds (82.5 mana/sec)
= ~126 mana/sec. We're only getting 50 of that, which if you divide it out is about 40% of the necessary mana. We can assume that if we're only spending 40% of normal mana, we're only generating 40% normal threat, so that puts our test paladin's OT threat gen at 240 threat per second.

Now let's examine the warrior. Warriors have a lot more spammable abilities, limited primarily by global cooldown, so we have to compare a lot more carefully. The Warrior loses Revenge from not being the target. You may not know this, but Revenge is a very large portion of Warrior threat - I asked on the Warrior boards about how much of a percentage of total threat it comes out to, most common response seems to be 15%, which brings his threat output to 680. Let's also assume, for the sake of argument, that the Warrior has all the -rage cost talents. So, without Revenge, a Warrior is generally going to follow this rotation:

Shield Slam: 17 rage every 6 seconds (~2.8 rage/sec)
Sunder Armor: 9 rage every 1.5 seconds so long as Shield Slam isn't up, which totals out to 21 rage every 6 seconds (~3.5 rage/sec)
Heroic Strike: 9 rage every weapon swing, we'll assume a 1.8 speed weapon here as well (5 rage/sec)
= ~11.3 rage/sec. The Warrior tank is getting 5 rage/sec, which is 44% of that. 44% rage spent = 44% threat output, putting the Warrior tank at 299 threat per second, 59 more TPS than the Paladin, or around 25% more.

So the Warrior definitely has a base OT threat advantage. However, the Paladin still has plenty of tools available for mana recovery, while the Warrior OT has exhausted his. I suspect adding a Mana Tide shaman to the Paladin's group would add quite a bit, and adding a Shadow Priest would most likely boost the Paladin's mana income to the point that he could outpace the Warrior. It'd be interesting to see that math, but I'm a bit mathed out at the moment :P

I'm fairly positive that Druids still blow both Warriors and Paladins out of the water for OT threat gen, though.
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Postby Kathryn » Wed May 30, 2007 11:36 am

There is always the encounter parts of things...

For example, OTing Gruul means gettign HS, and that fills the Warrior's rage bar to full. That HS > rage > threat has a better output than our HS > Heal > mana > Threat.

Just going by HS to threat conversion, still leaving SPriest / Tide out of the loop.

Wich also play into making Druids better threat gen OT than both of us plate using classes.
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Postby kurros » Wed May 30, 2007 2:36 pm

In an encounter where the offtank isn't getting hit, a paladin offtank can put Blessing of Sacrifice on the maintank to soak a little damage and see a net gain in mana if he is getting healed directly or through leader of the pack, or vampiric.

This technique can of course also be used by holy paladins, so keep it on the down-low :P
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed May 30, 2007 3:20 pm

kurros wrote:In an encounter where the offtank isn't getting hit, a paladin offtank can put Blessing of Sacrifice on the maintank to soak a little damage and see a net gain in mana if he is getting healed directly or through leader of the pack, or vampiric.

This technique can of course also be used by holy paladins, so keep it on the down-low :P


it's terribly mana inefficient for a holy paladin to keep BoSac on an MT in the grand scheme of things. They end up with less mana from recasting it than they do from heals. :/
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Re: Paladin OT threat vs. Warrior OT threat

Postby Everlight » Wed May 30, 2007 4:03 pm

Lore wrote:~20 mana/sec from Super Mana Pots (average yield of 2400 mana, 2 minute cooldown)

~1 rage/sec from Mighty Rage Potions if the Warrior is so inclined


I'm not convinced that including potions is a balanced indicator. A super mana pot comprises 40% of our mana regeneration according to your figures above, whereas the Mighty Rage pot only comprises 20% of the Warrior's. Also, Rend generates rage while it ticks (last time I checked), since it does white damage - and it also adds a minimal amount of threat.

Heroic Strike: 9 rage every weapon swing, we'll assume a 1.8 speed weapon here as well (5 rage/sec)


There's a hidden cost in Heroic Strike. It takes away a white swing, meaning you don't generate any rage on the white swing you would have had when you used Heroic Strike.

I'm fairly positive that Druids still blow both Warriors and Paladins out of the water for OT threat gen, though.


Yeah, they do. None of their threat is reactive at all.
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Re: Paladin OT threat vs. Warrior OT threat

Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 31, 2007 7:02 am

Everlight wrote:Yeah, they do. None of their threat is reactive at all.


Also Omen of Clarity is OP for offtanking. :/
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Re: Paladin OT threat vs. Warrior OT threat

Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 7:48 am

Everlight wrote:I'm not convinced that including potions is a balanced indicator. A super mana pot comprises 40% of our mana regeneration according to your figures above, whereas the Mighty Rage pot only comprises 20% of the Warrior's. Also, Rend generates rage while it ticks (last time I checked), since it does white damage - and it also adds a minimal amount of threat.


Not sure what you mean by "balanced indicator." Both are easy-to-use methods to gain mana or rage, so I included them. To not include them, or to only include one or the other, would have been unfair.

I also just hopped on my warrior to check - rend does yellow damage, and does not generate rage. It's been like that as long as I can remember, I'm not sure what made you think otherwise.

There's a hidden cost in Heroic Strike. It takes away a white swing, meaning you don't generate any rage on the white swing you would have had when you used Heroic Strike.


Ah true, I forgot to include that. That's pretty huge.
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Postby Kvaern » Thu May 31, 2007 8:05 am

Pallies also lose reckoning.

Also, since you're at full mana when you begin you won't be able to gain the full 20 mp/5 from mana pots, there will be a gap. (small but it's there never the less).

It's nice to see some math on it, keep this thread going )
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 8:42 am

Kvaern wrote:Pallies also lose reckoning.

Also, since you're at full mana when you begin you won't be able to gain the full 20 mp/5 from mana pots, there will be a gap. (small but it's there never the less).

It's nice to see some math on it, keep this thread going )


True, I forgot about reckoning as well. However, it's a small enough loss of threat output that I'm not sure it's all that important.

The gap isn't really a gap, since it doesn't actually start until your mana drops below where you would get the full benefit of the mana pot.
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Re: Paladin OT threat vs. Warrior OT threat

Postby Everlight » Thu May 31, 2007 1:47 pm

Not sure what you mean by "balanced indicator." Both are easy-to-use methods to gain mana or rage, so I included them. To not include them, or to only include one or the other, would have been unfair.


The reason why it's not balanced is because a Warrior in a typical scenario will not burn Mighty Rage potions because of the trivial effect they have on his Rage. He'll save the potion cooldown for Healing Potions instead.

The Paladin on the other hand loses 40% (!!!!!) of his Mana Regeneration by NOT burning Mana Potions, thus is basically forced to use them, and also loses the potion cooldown.

The Paladin is affected much, much more strongly than the Warrior is by the use of the Potion cooldown for gaining power.

My feeling is you'd get a better indicator from ignoring potions completely, then look at how much extra TPS you gain from using them.

I also just hopped on my warrior to check - rend does yellow damage, and does not generate rage. It's been like that as long as I can remember, I'm not sure what made you think otherwise.


Odd. When I levelled my pre-2.0 warrior up, I tested this out pretty thoroughly to make sure I wasn't dreaming, and Rend was white damage that generated rage. Just went and checked it again, and it's yellow damage that doesn't. Could have been changed in 2.0 when they went and changed Sword Spec attacks to be yellow.

Admittedly I didn't check it again before I posted :P
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Postby Daeren » Thu May 31, 2007 9:59 pm

Rend has at least since 1.4 been yellow non-rage-gererating damage.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:28 am

Yeah my warrior was my first character at release, and I don't remember Rend ever being white damage.

And I dunno about other guilds, but my OT warriors pop rage potions. You don't need a healing potion timer in an OT position.
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Postby Everlight » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:25 pm

You may wish to revise your original post to take into account the increased costing of Heroic Strike. It reverses the result (230 tps for the Warrior versus 240 tps for the Paladin).
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