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Weapon Expertise or not?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Lore » Wed May 30, 2007 3:28 pm

Wowwiki's information is incorrect. Weapon skill is compared against your opponent's defense skill - it doesn't matter what their level is.

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=11885

Testing done in that thread gives a sufficient amount of proof to convince me that the CM was correct.
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Postby Everlight » Wed May 30, 2007 5:45 pm

Yowzers. That's pushing a significant rethink of talents... That means that Weapon Skill is actually useful, especially with the implications on Parry.

Got some reading to do now.
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Postby Strom » Thu May 31, 2007 6:30 am

Everlight wrote:Yowzers. That's pushing a significant rethink of talents... That means that Weapon Skill is actually useful, especially with the implications on Parry.

Got some reading to do now.


i wouldnt go so far as to say its useful... it just has a use now. Until they streamline our prot tree, I just do not see it as useful.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 8:27 am

Strom wrote:
Everlight wrote:Yowzers. That's pushing a significant rethink of talents... That means that Weapon Skill is actually useful, especially with the implications on Parry.

Got some reading to do now.


i wouldnt go so far as to say its useful... it just has a use now. Until they streamline our prot tree, I just do not see it as useful.


It's point-for-point better than Precision, which is worth quite a bit for your SoR/SoV threat. From what I've heard regarding SoV, landing melee hits is very important for it to function properly.
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Postby Strom » Thu May 31, 2007 9:13 am

Lore wrote:
Strom wrote:
Everlight wrote:Yowzers. That's pushing a significant rethink of talents... That means that Weapon Skill is actually useful, especially with the implications on Parry.

Got some reading to do now.


i wouldnt go so far as to say its useful... it just has a use now. Until they streamline our prot tree, I just do not see it as useful.


It's point-for-point better than Precision, which is worth quite a bit for your SoR/SoV threat. From what I've heard regarding SoV, landing melee hits is very important for it to function properly.


I agree that its new found use has a place, but how important is that compared to what else we can get for those points?
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 31, 2007 9:13 am

Lore wrote:Wowwiki's information is incorrect. Weapon skill is compared against your opponent's defense skill - it doesn't matter what their level is.

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=11885

Testing done in that thread gives a sufficient amount of proof to convince me that the CM was correct.


The testing done by Theras seems to prove exactly the opposite.... quoting a posted from that thread by Aldriana:

Aldriana wrote:Initial calculations: (I'll do the rest later):

Crit Difference is .793%, corrected to .673% to account for agi gap, with a std dev of .188%. Hence, with a high degree of confidence, the true number lies within 1.041 and .305. Assuming the skill difference is 15 as previously asserted, the true crit per skill number lies between .02% and .06%.

Same calculation for hit: hit per skill lies between .106% and .181%.

Same calculation for dodge: dodge reduction per skill lies between .053% and .112%.

Conclusion? Well, the first one is that the data set would need to be about 5 times larger to really pin this down with much accuracy. But .04% crit per skill looks pretty good, .1% hit is now on the outliers, and dodge has the look of some oddity like .08%


Those are significantly different numbers than what we were told by the CM, which for reference was:

Crezax wrote:I wouldn't say it's useless.

Let's say you increase your weapon skill by 4.

Against a mob 3 levels higher than you, you get: 0.8% lower chance to miss, 0,4% lower chance to get dodged, 2,4% to be parried, and a 0,8% higher chance to crit. That means a 4,8% net increase.


Direct comparison of Theras' data vs claims by Crezak:

Crit
Theras: 0.02% - 0.06% per skill
Crezax: 0.2% per skill

Hit
Theras: 0.106% - 0.181% per skill
Crezax: 0.2% per skill

Dodge
Theras: 0.053% - 0.112% per skill
Crezax: 0.1% per skill

Parry
Theras: neglible difference
Crezax: 0.6% per skill


So that's close for Hit and Dodge but wildly off for Crit and Parry... weird stuff!

edit: I fail at division
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 31, 2007 5:21 pm

Lev wrote:Is there any addon wich will analyze the log and display some kind of usable numbers? Would be nice since battle log is running too fast in fight for checking it out by myself :roll:


type /combatlog to have your log exported to a file as it runs. Then when you are done, upload it to WoW Web Stats to see a breakdown of the data.

http://www.lossendil.fr/ is the link to the main page of the site. It provides incredibly valuable information. For instance before patch 2.1 you could see exactly how much mana a holy pally got from Illumination during a fight, to know exactly how strong the nerf would be etc. Many people will be surprised at how often they miss or get resisted, it is potentially a massive chunk of threat.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 8:50 pm

Interesting. That wasn't the thread I was thinking of apparently (the one I saw, some rogue was doing a bunch of testing) but it does seem to prove fairly conclusively in the opposite direction of the thread I saw.

I'll have to play around with it ingame and see what kind of results I get.
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Postby Saladin » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:21 am

i think my head is gonna asplode from all the numbers ..

can anyone verify dorwens numbers?

also .. i was levelling two handed maces today.. and noticed for sure.. that every point to wep skill gives .04% to crit % i still have a few more skill ups to go.. so ill take screenies ..
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Postby Trevize » Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:31 pm

This is very interesting indeed...I just wish we had a bit more wiggle room in our bloated protection tree. I am very interested in more results anyone gets as well.
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Postby dern » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:03 pm

Any word on this, I respecced over the weekend, we were a little short on healers so I figured I'd step in to show them how it's done :P (and I did /lol )

I respecced and included 3 pts in WE instead of precision. ..I didn't notice a diffrerence but was hoping to see more theorycraft and actual numbers
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Postby Furiouso » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:21 pm

I have full Reckoning and full Wep Ex because it seems like that would create some good synergy. I believe my miss/dodge/parry rates are all about 1% lower or more with full Wep Ex, but the thing that I notice the most is that Avenger's Shield hardly, hardly ever misses. Without Precision or Wep Ex it seems to miss a lot.
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Postby Mortehl » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:23 pm

With Weapon Expertise: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ib ... -2594&a=24
With Precision: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bc ... -4956&a=16

You'll see that there was a full 2% less mitigated melee attacks with Weapon Expertise. That is clear evidence IMO. Also, I'm not sure if it means anything, but even consecration missed and was mitigated less.


Gruul fight.

Edit: Ah crap I forgot I used S/JoV when I fought him with WE and JoR when I fought him with Precision.
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
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Postby Nidal » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:04 pm

And if you had both?
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Postby Mortehl » Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:38 am

Nidal wrote:And if you had both?


If I had both that would be great, but I can't see that happening. Even if our talents were consolidated in such a way that 10 points were free, I'd be spending them differently to get at Imp LoH.
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