Remove Advertisements

Dodge Vs BR/BV....

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Dodge Vs BR/BV....

Postby Kathryn » Thu May 24, 2007 7:36 am

Test done in Tanking Sim, No T-Clap, No Demoshout, Maulgar Preset.

HP: 14700
Armor: 16257
Miss: 11.5
Dodge: 23
Parry: 17
Block: 17
Block Value: 250

Here's Results:

Code: Select all
----------------------------------
Total table for 15 fights.
-----------------------------------
Miss rate : 11.52
Dodge rate : 27.35
Parry rate : 17.08
Block rate : 53.59
Crush rate : 0
-----------------------------------
Avg length of fight : 2.35 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 1148.46
-----------------------------------
Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%


HP: 14700
Armor: 16257
Miss: 11.5
Dodge: 17
Parry: 17
Block: 26
BLock Value: 450

Results:

Code: Select all
-----------------------------------
Total table for 15 fights.
-----------------------------------
Miss rate : 13.13
Dodge rate : 19.98
Parry rate : 17.19
Block rate : 58.74
Crush rate : 0
-----------------------------------
Avg length of fight : 2.22 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 1222.36
-----------------------------------
Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%


Taking BV/BR instead of Dodge roughly is equivalent in the long run, however BV/BR combo is a more predictable curve of damage.

Also, something to take note, The dodge route makes you skip HS charges and thus loosing aggro potential.

The other interesting thing is how BV/BR works when you have a T-Clap and Demoshout kept up.

First Setup

Code: Select all
-----------------------------------
Total table for 15 fights.
-----------------------------------
Miss rate : 14.26
Dodge rate : 23.04
Parry rate : 18.77
Block rate : 54.62
Crush rate : 0
-----------------------------------
Avg length of fight : 3.39 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 820.67
-----------------------------------
Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%


Second Setup:

Code: Select all
-----------------------------------
Total table for 15 fights.
-----------------------------------
Miss rate : 11.13
Dodge rate : 17.5
Parry rate : 20.01
Block rate : 62.44
Crush rate : 0
-----------------------------------
Avg length of fight : 3.35 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 905.83
-----------------------------------
Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%


Interesting relation i say... When i get more BV i'll be able to test this more since i'll have a way better idea of the differences in HP and Armor between the 2...
User avatar
Kathryn
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:38 am

Postby Everlight » Thu May 24, 2007 1:41 pm

Hold up. A difference of 1.19% is not statistically relevant in a sample size of only 15 tests. Redo for 200 fights and see how you go :)

Also don't neglect how BV is non-scalable with mob damage, whereas Dodge is.
Everlight
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 5:48 pm

Postby Eloff » Thu May 24, 2007 2:25 pm

Block value will always perform significantly better as damage decreases. (Demo shout always buffs BV. Stacking more armor also buffs BV. Dropping below 35% health? Buffs BV.)

There has to be some way to graph the relationship between pure avoidance, incoming damage, damage mitigation, and block value... But I think that's a 4D graph...? I've been out of college too long! Somebody explain Spline curves to me again, quick!
"With your shield or on it" - Spartan Code of Conduct


Image
Eloff
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm

Postby Eloff » Thu May 24, 2007 4:55 pm

Actually, I'm either flat wrong, or I'm not stating that correctly...


Let's go through the FUN task of converting a blocked amount (the actual amount blocked... divide by 1.3 to get the amount of +block value listed on gear...) directly to a percent mitigated. Which is then easily compared to armor values!

I recommend a nice excel spreadsheet to keep track of the formula for you.

Lets start at the combat log level.

I take a hit from some big boss for 3900 (300 blocked)
To be clear, this means my total block value is 231 or so.
I can check my character sheet and notice that my armor normally reduces my damge by .5553

This means I can compute the raw Incoming Damage as X=(3900+300)/(1-0.5553)

X = 9445

So my TOTAL mitigation including blocking is 1- (3900/9445) = .5871

Thus 231 block value (gear) gave me .5871-.5553 = 3.18% damage reduction.

If you redo the calculation and factor in AD being active, you will still see the exact same 3.18% damage reduction from block value... (the combat log will have a much smaller starting number.)

I'm unsure on what the armor formula is to give the equivalent increase in armor needed to compare this... but I'm sure someone else (probably Arcand or Lore...) will help me out.


Couple notes:
Adding armor does NOT actually affect the mitigation percent of block value. It will however, still reduce the combat log damage.

Changing the 'raw Incoming Damage' amount will DRASTICALLY change the BV percent damage reductions. (If my combat log had read 1700 damage (300 blocked), I'd have taken a raw damage hit of 8995 / 2. Since my 300 blocked did not change, I gain more than double the % reduction. (6.67% now)

Changing your current +block value will also DRASTICALLY change the percent reductions. In the above example, a "100 blocked" damage log would only be a 1.059 % reduction.

So the more you stack, the better your mitigation. (Kinda opposite armor here...)

Fun fact #1: Raw incoming damage of 17990 with a "600 blocked" damage log is still a 3.18% reduction. The combat log for this hit would read, "... hit for 7400 damage. 600 blocked."

Fun fact #2: Assuming 4540/13000 hp (which I don't have...), 400 block value, and about the same armor... I could survive a hit that would normally have dealt me 8400 damage (after blocking!) AD is nice...

Fun Fact #3: if I had 4551-8400 / 13000 hp... I'd be dead.

(edited for clarity)
Last edited by Eloff on Thu May 24, 2007 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"With your shield or on it" - Spartan Code of Conduct


Image
Eloff
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm

Postby Aergis » Thu May 24, 2007 6:40 pm

I'm unsure on what the armor formula is to give the equivalent increase in armor needed to compare this... but I'm sure someone else (probably Arcand or Lore...) will help me out.


Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))

Let's start with 15,000 armor.

15,000 / ( 15,000 + 400 + 85 * ( 70 + 4.5 * ( 70 - 59 )))
15,000 / ( 15,000 + 10557.5 )
15,000 / 25557.5
-------------------------
0.586 or about 58.7% reduction.

So do get that to 61.9%, our armor would have to be 17197

17197-15000 = 2197

thus 231 block value from gear equals 2197 armor when you are getting hit for 9445 raw damage with around averageish armor ( 15,000 ).
Image
User avatar
Aergis
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1144
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:37 pm

Postby Eloff » Thu May 24, 2007 6:47 pm

TY!


thus 231 block value from gear equals 2197 armor when you are getting hit for 9445 raw damage



This is the 'perfect' quote that sums up the math involved in comparing BV to armor. It's very much a case by case basis.

That said, I'd love to see a database with the average damage per hit for a variety of bosses. Then I could really pre-compute my best gear set...
"With your shield or on it" - Spartan Code of Conduct


Image
Eloff
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm

Postby Everlight » Thu May 24, 2007 7:17 pm

Eloff wrote:This is the 'perfect' quote that sums up the math involved in comparing BV to armor. It's very much a case by case basis.


Yep, that's about the sum of it. The worth of Block Value;

* Increases as your armor increases.
* Decreases as the incoming damage a mob does increases.

So it's really a "figure it out" scenario, unless someone feels like plotting a 4-d graph. I did such a thing on my blog for armor rating versus dodge, but it's going to get ugly with the additional axis.

Of note, that 231 Block Value is 115.5 iPoints with 3/3 Shield Spec, and the armor is 199 iPoints with 5/5 Toughness. Making the BV a better spend of itemization points in that example.

So yeah, when comparing BV to Armor, you need to be saying "X block value is worth Y armor when you are being hit for Z damage with W existing armor".

Surgeon General's Warning - The BV is a better spend IN THIS EXAMPLE. Your mileage may vary. No warranties implied.
Last edited by Everlight on Thu May 24, 2007 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Everlight
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 5:48 pm

Postby Eloff » Thu May 24, 2007 7:22 pm

I'm having fun w/Excel now...

Using my stats, I take a 6000 damage hit with EITHER 307 block value OR 377 additional armor and a 230 block value!

A 4000 hit is only a 553 armor difference.

A 2000 hit is 1035 armor....
"With your shield or on it" - Spartan Code of Conduct


Image
Eloff
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm

Postby Eloff » Thu May 24, 2007 7:27 pm

with W existing armor


Actually, the existing armor doesn't affect the percentage block value is going to reduce the hit... Basically, 300 blocked out of an incoming raw damage hit of 8995 is constant. Changing the amount blocked, or the size of the hit are the items that adapt the percentages.
"With your shield or on it" - Spartan Code of Conduct


Image
Eloff
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm

Postby Everlight » Thu May 24, 2007 7:40 pm

Eloff wrote:
with W existing armor


Actually, the existing armor doesn't affect the percentage block value is going to reduce the hit...


Don't see how you can say that. If I'm mitigating 75% of a 1k raw hit with armor and blocking 250 of the remaining, then Block Value is infinitely more valuable than armor from that point :)

Extreme example, but yeah.
Everlight
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 5:48 pm

Postby Eloff » Fri May 25, 2007 12:53 pm

It's simple:

If you have a raw damage of X and a shield block value of Y...


The percentage of the raw damage you block is going to always be Y/X

That's what I mean by existing armor doesn't matter.

(In order to compare armor and block value, you have to look at raw damage, not mitigated damage...)

In your example, your block value mitigated 25% of the raw damage. That number doesn't change if you reduce your 75% mitigation from armor value.
"With your shield or on it" - Spartan Code of Conduct


Image
Eloff
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 25, 2007 1:59 pm

Eloff wrote:It's simple:

If you have a raw damage of X and a shield block value of Y...


The percentage of the raw damage you block is going to always be Y/X

That's what I mean by existing armor doesn't matter.

(In order to compare armor and block value, you have to look at raw damage, not mitigated damage...)

In your example, your block value mitigated 25% of the raw damage. That number doesn't change if you reduce your 75% mitigation from armor value.


The % doesn't change but the amount of damage you take does, which is the only really relevent stat when you compare armor to BV. That means you have to account for armor and understand that the effectiveness of block value, in relation to armor, slides based on how much armor you have, it also means the answer is different in different situations.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9666
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Aergis » Fri May 25, 2007 2:06 pm

Everlight means block value when compared to damage taken.

Example:
Boss its for 10k raw, you have 60% mitigation from armor and 250 block value. The armor reduces the damage taken to 4,000. 250 blocked and it's a total of 3,750.

Total damage taken without block val : 3,750
Reduction from block : 250
Block absorbed 250 / 3,750 : 6.66% reduction

Now say Boss hits for 10k raw, but you have 75% mitigation from armor and 250 block value. Armor reduces damage taken to 2,500 and your block absobs 250 of that, totalling 2250.

Total damage without block val : 2,500.
Reduction from block : 250.
Block absorbed 250 / 2,500 : 10% reduction


So as your armor goes up, the block value absorbs a larger percent of damage you would have taken, since the incoming damage is smaller and your block value is static.
Image
User avatar
Aergis
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1144
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:37 pm

Postby Kathryn » Sat May 26, 2007 12:02 am

That's why i'm working on getting the last key parts of my ~20k armor, ~730 Block Value (after Shield Spec) Set :D

Note: it won't be complete without 4 T5 + T4 shoulders... And T5 is still out of reach for me :(

However i must say... i'm eager to see it in action once more, but on live with the epic buffs that the PTR didn't have when i tested it
User avatar
Kathryn
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:38 am

Postby Joanadark » Sat May 26, 2007 7:54 pm

Isn't the point that you would want to compare benefit from ADDITIONAL Block Value verses ADDITIONAL Armor?

Thats the only comparison that matters.

What, is your Block Value and your Armor in a massive arguement over who gets the e-peen of adding the higher mitigation.

And also, your current armor and block values has a MAJOR importance.
Specifically, the relative amount of each stat compared to each other determines the contribution adding more of either would make.




IN GENERAL, assuming incoming damage is significantly high;


If you CURRENTLY have:
-ALOT of Armor
-LITTLE Block Value

Then when adding NEW gear upgrades:
-additional Armor is of LOW value in terms of its relative contribution
-additional Block Value is of HIGH value in terms of its relative contribution



If you CURRENTLY have:
-MODERATE/LOW Armor
-HIGH Block Value

Then when adding NEW gear upgrades:
-additional Armor is of HIGH value in terms of its relative contribution
-additional Block Value is of LOW value in terms of its relative contribution


Additional Stamina compares to both Armor or additional Block Value in the same way. Effective Health Theory treats Stamina as simply another kind of Mitigation stat, that just works from the opposite direction.




Beyond that general guide-line, so many variables exist that the cross-over point is completely different in every situation.

Avoidance doesnt have quite the same relationship to the Mitigation stats as the Mitigation stats have to each other.
In their case, the cross-over point of equal relatative contribution between additional Mitigation and additional Avoidance is flexible, meaning you can push it up and down by increasing the amount of one or the other you already possess, thus decreasing the amount of the opposite that is required for equal benefit as a static amount of the other.

The determiner for Mitigation verses Avoidance is, rather than the stats, the item values themselves, and what particular point on the sliding scale of cross-over benefit between them produces the least expensive use of Itemization Points. The general range around this point on the scale is where you should shoot for with your gear.

Again, Mitigation verses Avoidance suffers from many variables just like comparisons between types of Mitigation.

In GENERAL...

Reason for Tank Death:

Spike Damage----> Need higher Mitigation
Healer OOM-------> Need higher Avoidance
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?