Dodge Vs BR/BV....
Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd
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Dodge Vs BR/BV....
Test done in Tanking Sim, No TClap, No Demoshout, Maulgar Preset.
HP: 14700
Armor: 16257
Miss: 11.5
Dodge: 23
Parry: 17
Block: 17
Block Value: 250
Here's Results:
HP: 14700
Armor: 16257
Miss: 11.5
Dodge: 17
Parry: 17
Block: 26
BLock Value: 450
Results:
Taking BV/BR instead of Dodge roughly is equivalent in the long run, however BV/BR combo is a more predictable curve of damage.
Also, something to take note, The dodge route makes you skip HS charges and thus loosing aggro potential.
The other interesting thing is how BV/BR works when you have a TClap and Demoshout kept up.
First Setup
Second Setup:
Interesting relation i say... When i get more BV i'll be able to test this more since i'll have a way better idea of the differences in HP and Armor between the 2...
HP: 14700
Armor: 16257
Miss: 11.5
Dodge: 23
Parry: 17
Block: 17
Block Value: 250
Here's Results:
 Code: Select all

Total table for 15 fights.

Miss rate : 11.52
Dodge rate : 27.35
Parry rate : 17.08
Block rate : 53.59
Crush rate : 0

Avg length of fight : 2.35 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 1148.46

Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%
HP: 14700
Armor: 16257
Miss: 11.5
Dodge: 17
Parry: 17
Block: 26
BLock Value: 450
Results:
 Code: Select all

Total table for 15 fights.

Miss rate : 13.13
Dodge rate : 19.98
Parry rate : 17.19
Block rate : 58.74
Crush rate : 0

Avg length of fight : 2.22 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 1222.36

Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%
Taking BV/BR instead of Dodge roughly is equivalent in the long run, however BV/BR combo is a more predictable curve of damage.
Also, something to take note, The dodge route makes you skip HS charges and thus loosing aggro potential.
The other interesting thing is how BV/BR works when you have a TClap and Demoshout kept up.
First Setup
 Code: Select all

Total table for 15 fights.

Miss rate : 14.26
Dodge rate : 23.04
Parry rate : 18.77
Block rate : 54.62
Crush rate : 0

Avg length of fight : 3.39 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 820.67

Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%
Second Setup:
 Code: Select all

Total table for 15 fights.

Miss rate : 11.13
Dodge rate : 17.5
Parry rate : 20.01
Block rate : 62.44
Crush rate : 0

Avg length of fight : 3.35 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 905.83

Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%
Interesting relation i say... When i get more BV i'll be able to test this more since i'll have a way better idea of the differences in HP and Armor between the 2...

Kathryn  Posts: 183
 Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:38 am
Hold up. A difference of 1.19% is not statistically relevant in a sample size of only 15 tests. Redo for 200 fights and see how you go
Also don't neglect how BV is nonscalable with mob damage, whereas Dodge is.
Also don't neglect how BV is nonscalable with mob damage, whereas Dodge is.
Zen Tanking  http://zentanking.blogspot.com
 Everlight
 Posts: 590
 Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 5:48 pm
Block value will always perform significantly better as damage decreases. (Demo shout always buffs BV. Stacking more armor also buffs BV. Dropping below 35% health? Buffs BV.)
There has to be some way to graph the relationship between pure avoidance, incoming damage, damage mitigation, and block value... But I think that's a 4D graph...? I've been out of college too long! Somebody explain Spline curves to me again, quick!
There has to be some way to graph the relationship between pure avoidance, incoming damage, damage mitigation, and block value... But I think that's a 4D graph...? I've been out of college too long! Somebody explain Spline curves to me again, quick!
"With your shield or on it"  Spartan Code of Conduct
 Eloff
 Posts: 216
 Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm
Actually, I'm either flat wrong, or I'm not stating that correctly...
Let's go through the FUN task of converting a blocked amount (the actual amount blocked... divide by 1.3 to get the amount of +block value listed on gear...) directly to a percent mitigated. Which is then easily compared to armor values!
I recommend a nice excel spreadsheet to keep track of the formula for you.
Lets start at the combat log level.
I take a hit from some big boss for 3900 (300 blocked)
To be clear, this means my total block value is 231 or so.
I can check my character sheet and notice that my armor normally reduces my damge by .5553
This means I can compute the raw Incoming Damage as X=(3900+300)/(10.5553)
X = 9445
So my TOTAL mitigation including blocking is 1 (3900/9445) = .5871
Thus 231 block value (gear) gave me .5871.5553 = 3.18% damage reduction.
If you redo the calculation and factor in AD being active, you will still see the exact same 3.18% damage reduction from block value... (the combat log will have a much smaller starting number.)
I'm unsure on what the armor formula is to give the equivalent increase in armor needed to compare this... but I'm sure someone else (probably Arcand or Lore...) will help me out.
Couple notes:
Adding armor does NOT actually affect the mitigation percent of block value. It will however, still reduce the combat log damage.
Changing the 'raw Incoming Damage' amount will DRASTICALLY change the BV percent damage reductions. (If my combat log had read 1700 damage (300 blocked), I'd have taken a raw damage hit of 8995 / 2. Since my 300 blocked did not change, I gain more than double the % reduction. (6.67% now)
Changing your current +block value will also DRASTICALLY change the percent reductions. In the above example, a "100 blocked" damage log would only be a 1.059 % reduction.
So the more you stack, the better your mitigation. (Kinda opposite armor here...)
Fun fact #1: Raw incoming damage of 17990 with a "600 blocked" damage log is still a 3.18% reduction. The combat log for this hit would read, "... hit for 7400 damage. 600 blocked."
Fun fact #2: Assuming 4540/13000 hp (which I don't have...), 400 block value, and about the same armor... I could survive a hit that would normally have dealt me 8400 damage (after blocking!) AD is nice...
Fun Fact #3: if I had 45518400 / 13000 hp... I'd be dead.
(edited for clarity)
Let's go through the FUN task of converting a blocked amount (the actual amount blocked... divide by 1.3 to get the amount of +block value listed on gear...) directly to a percent mitigated. Which is then easily compared to armor values!
I recommend a nice excel spreadsheet to keep track of the formula for you.
Lets start at the combat log level.
I take a hit from some big boss for 3900 (300 blocked)
To be clear, this means my total block value is 231 or so.
I can check my character sheet and notice that my armor normally reduces my damge by .5553
This means I can compute the raw Incoming Damage as X=(3900+300)/(10.5553)
X = 9445
So my TOTAL mitigation including blocking is 1 (3900/9445) = .5871
Thus 231 block value (gear) gave me .5871.5553 = 3.18% damage reduction.
If you redo the calculation and factor in AD being active, you will still see the exact same 3.18% damage reduction from block value... (the combat log will have a much smaller starting number.)
I'm unsure on what the armor formula is to give the equivalent increase in armor needed to compare this... but I'm sure someone else (probably Arcand or Lore...) will help me out.
Couple notes:
Adding armor does NOT actually affect the mitigation percent of block value. It will however, still reduce the combat log damage.
Changing the 'raw Incoming Damage' amount will DRASTICALLY change the BV percent damage reductions. (If my combat log had read 1700 damage (300 blocked), I'd have taken a raw damage hit of 8995 / 2. Since my 300 blocked did not change, I gain more than double the % reduction. (6.67% now)
Changing your current +block value will also DRASTICALLY change the percent reductions. In the above example, a "100 blocked" damage log would only be a 1.059 % reduction.
So the more you stack, the better your mitigation. (Kinda opposite armor here...)
Fun fact #1: Raw incoming damage of 17990 with a "600 blocked" damage log is still a 3.18% reduction. The combat log for this hit would read, "... hit for 7400 damage. 600 blocked."
Fun fact #2: Assuming 4540/13000 hp (which I don't have...), 400 block value, and about the same armor... I could survive a hit that would normally have dealt me 8400 damage (after blocking!) AD is nice...
Fun Fact #3: if I had 45518400 / 13000 hp... I'd be dead.
(edited for clarity)
Last edited by Eloff on Thu May 24, 2007 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"With your shield or on it"  Spartan Code of Conduct
 Eloff
 Posts: 216
 Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm
I'm unsure on what the armor formula is to give the equivalent increase in armor needed to compare this... but I'm sure someone else (probably Arcand or Lore...) will help me out.
Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level59)))
Let's start with 15,000 armor.
15,000 / ( 15,000 + 400 + 85 * ( 70 + 4.5 * ( 70  59 )))
15,000 / ( 15,000 + 10557.5 )
15,000 / 25557.5

0.586 or about 58.7% reduction.
So do get that to 61.9%, our armor would have to be 17197
1719715000 = 2197
thus 231 block value from gear equals 2197 armor when you are getting hit for 9445 raw damage with around averageish armor ( 15,000 ).

Aergis  Site Admin
 Posts: 1145
 Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:37 pm
TY!
This is the 'perfect' quote that sums up the math involved in comparing BV to armor. It's very much a case by case basis.
That said, I'd love to see a database with the average damage per hit for a variety of bosses. Then I could really precompute my best gear set...
thus 231 block value from gear equals 2197 armor when you are getting hit for 9445 raw damage
This is the 'perfect' quote that sums up the math involved in comparing BV to armor. It's very much a case by case basis.
That said, I'd love to see a database with the average damage per hit for a variety of bosses. Then I could really precompute my best gear set...
"With your shield or on it"  Spartan Code of Conduct
 Eloff
 Posts: 216
 Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm
Eloff wrote:This is the 'perfect' quote that sums up the math involved in comparing BV to armor. It's very much a case by case basis.
Yep, that's about the sum of it. The worth of Block Value;
* Increases as your armor increases.
* Decreases as the incoming damage a mob does increases.
So it's really a "figure it out" scenario, unless someone feels like plotting a 4d graph. I did such a thing on my blog for armor rating versus dodge, but it's going to get ugly with the additional axis.
Of note, that 231 Block Value is 115.5 iPoints with 3/3 Shield Spec, and the armor is 199 iPoints with 5/5 Toughness. Making the BV a better spend of itemization points in that example.
So yeah, when comparing BV to Armor, you need to be saying "X block value is worth Y armor when you are being hit for Z damage with W existing armor".
Surgeon General's Warning  The BV is a better spend IN THIS EXAMPLE. Your mileage may vary. No warranties implied.
Last edited by Everlight on Thu May 24, 2007 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zen Tanking  http://zentanking.blogspot.com
 Everlight
 Posts: 590
 Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 5:48 pm
I'm having fun w/Excel now...
Using my stats, I take a 6000 damage hit with EITHER 307 block value OR 377 additional armor and a 230 block value!
A 4000 hit is only a 553 armor difference.
A 2000 hit is 1035 armor....
Using my stats, I take a 6000 damage hit with EITHER 307 block value OR 377 additional armor and a 230 block value!
A 4000 hit is only a 553 armor difference.
A 2000 hit is 1035 armor....
"With your shield or on it"  Spartan Code of Conduct
 Eloff
 Posts: 216
 Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm
with W existing armor
Actually, the existing armor doesn't affect the percentage block value is going to reduce the hit... Basically, 300 blocked out of an incoming raw damage hit of 8995 is constant. Changing the amount blocked, or the size of the hit are the items that adapt the percentages.
"With your shield or on it"  Spartan Code of Conduct
 Eloff
 Posts: 216
 Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm
Eloff wrote:with W existing armor
Actually, the existing armor doesn't affect the percentage block value is going to reduce the hit...
Don't see how you can say that. If I'm mitigating 75% of a 1k raw hit with armor and blocking 250 of the remaining, then Block Value is infinitely more valuable than armor from that point
Extreme example, but yeah.
Zen Tanking  http://zentanking.blogspot.com
 Everlight
 Posts: 590
 Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 5:48 pm
It's simple:
If you have a raw damage of X and a shield block value of Y...
The percentage of the raw damage you block is going to always be Y/X
That's what I mean by existing armor doesn't matter.
(In order to compare armor and block value, you have to look at raw damage, not mitigated damage...)
In your example, your block value mitigated 25% of the raw damage. That number doesn't change if you reduce your 75% mitigation from armor value.
If you have a raw damage of X and a shield block value of Y...
The percentage of the raw damage you block is going to always be Y/X
That's what I mean by existing armor doesn't matter.
(In order to compare armor and block value, you have to look at raw damage, not mitigated damage...)
In your example, your block value mitigated 25% of the raw damage. That number doesn't change if you reduce your 75% mitigation from armor value.
"With your shield or on it"  Spartan Code of Conduct
 Eloff
 Posts: 216
 Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:16 pm
Eloff wrote:It's simple:
If you have a raw damage of X and a shield block value of Y...
The percentage of the raw damage you block is going to always be Y/X
That's what I mean by existing armor doesn't matter.
(In order to compare armor and block value, you have to look at raw damage, not mitigated damage...)
In your example, your block value mitigated 25% of the raw damage. That number doesn't change if you reduce your 75% mitigation from armor value.
The % doesn't change but the amount of damage you take does, which is the only really relevent stat when you compare armor to BV. That means you have to account for armor and understand that the effectiveness of block value, in relation to armor, slides based on how much armor you have, it also means the answer is different in different situations.
 Fridmarr
 Global Mod
 Posts: 9667
 Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am
Everlight means block value when compared to damage taken.
Example:
Boss its for 10k raw, you have 60% mitigation from armor and 250 block value. The armor reduces the damage taken to 4,000. 250 blocked and it's a total of 3,750.
Total damage taken without block val : 3,750
Reduction from block : 250
Block absorbed 250 / 3,750 : 6.66% reduction
Now say Boss hits for 10k raw, but you have 75% mitigation from armor and 250 block value. Armor reduces damage taken to 2,500 and your block absobs 250 of that, totalling 2250.
Total damage without block val : 2,500.
Reduction from block : 250.
Block absorbed 250 / 2,500 : 10% reduction
So as your armor goes up, the block value absorbs a larger percent of damage you would have taken, since the incoming damage is smaller and your block value is static.
Example:
Boss its for 10k raw, you have 60% mitigation from armor and 250 block value. The armor reduces the damage taken to 4,000. 250 blocked and it's a total of 3,750.
Total damage taken without block val : 3,750
Reduction from block : 250
Block absorbed 250 / 3,750 : 6.66% reduction
Now say Boss hits for 10k raw, but you have 75% mitigation from armor and 250 block value. Armor reduces damage taken to 2,500 and your block absobs 250 of that, totalling 2250.
Total damage without block val : 2,500.
Reduction from block : 250.
Block absorbed 250 / 2,500 : 10% reduction
So as your armor goes up, the block value absorbs a larger percent of damage you would have taken, since the incoming damage is smaller and your block value is static.

Aergis  Site Admin
 Posts: 1145
 Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:37 pm
That's why i'm working on getting the last key parts of my ~20k armor, ~730 Block Value (after Shield Spec) Set
Note: it won't be complete without 4 T5 + T4 shoulders... And T5 is still out of reach for me
However i must say... i'm eager to see it in action once more, but on live with the epic buffs that the PTR didn't have when i tested it
Note: it won't be complete without 4 T5 + T4 shoulders... And T5 is still out of reach for me
However i must say... i'm eager to see it in action once more, but on live with the epic buffs that the PTR didn't have when i tested it

Kathryn  Posts: 183
 Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:38 am
Isn't the point that you would want to compare benefit from ADDITIONAL Block Value verses ADDITIONAL Armor?
Thats the only comparison that matters.
What, is your Block Value and your Armor in a massive arguement over who gets the epeen of adding the higher mitigation.
And also, your current armor and block values has a MAJOR importance.
Specifically, the relative amount of each stat compared to each other determines the contribution adding more of either would make.
IN GENERAL, assuming incoming damage is significantly high;
If you CURRENTLY have:
ALOT of Armor
LITTLE Block Value
Then when adding NEW gear upgrades:
additional Armor is of LOW value in terms of its relative contribution
additional Block Value is of HIGH value in terms of its relative contribution
If you CURRENTLY have:
MODERATE/LOW Armor
HIGH Block Value
Then when adding NEW gear upgrades:
additional Armor is of HIGH value in terms of its relative contribution
additional Block Value is of LOW value in terms of its relative contribution
Additional Stamina compares to both Armor or additional Block Value in the same way. Effective Health Theory treats Stamina as simply another kind of Mitigation stat, that just works from the opposite direction.
Beyond that general guideline, so many variables exist that the crossover point is completely different in every situation.
Avoidance doesnt have quite the same relationship to the Mitigation stats as the Mitigation stats have to each other.
In their case, the crossover point of equal relatative contribution between additional Mitigation and additional Avoidance is flexible, meaning you can push it up and down by increasing the amount of one or the other you already possess, thus decreasing the amount of the opposite that is required for equal benefit as a static amount of the other.
The determiner for Mitigation verses Avoidance is, rather than the stats, the item values themselves, and what particular point on the sliding scale of crossover benefit between them produces the least expensive use of Itemization Points. The general range around this point on the scale is where you should shoot for with your gear.
Again, Mitigation verses Avoidance suffers from many variables just like comparisons between types of Mitigation.
In GENERAL...
Reason for Tank Death:
Spike Damage> Need higher Mitigation
Healer OOM> Need higher Avoidance
Thats the only comparison that matters.
What, is your Block Value and your Armor in a massive arguement over who gets the epeen of adding the higher mitigation.
And also, your current armor and block values has a MAJOR importance.
Specifically, the relative amount of each stat compared to each other determines the contribution adding more of either would make.
IN GENERAL, assuming incoming damage is significantly high;
If you CURRENTLY have:
ALOT of Armor
LITTLE Block Value
Then when adding NEW gear upgrades:
additional Armor is of LOW value in terms of its relative contribution
additional Block Value is of HIGH value in terms of its relative contribution
If you CURRENTLY have:
MODERATE/LOW Armor
HIGH Block Value
Then when adding NEW gear upgrades:
additional Armor is of HIGH value in terms of its relative contribution
additional Block Value is of LOW value in terms of its relative contribution
Additional Stamina compares to both Armor or additional Block Value in the same way. Effective Health Theory treats Stamina as simply another kind of Mitigation stat, that just works from the opposite direction.
Beyond that general guideline, so many variables exist that the crossover point is completely different in every situation.
Avoidance doesnt have quite the same relationship to the Mitigation stats as the Mitigation stats have to each other.
In their case, the crossover point of equal relatative contribution between additional Mitigation and additional Avoidance is flexible, meaning you can push it up and down by increasing the amount of one or the other you already possess, thus decreasing the amount of the opposite that is required for equal benefit as a static amount of the other.
The determiner for Mitigation verses Avoidance is, rather than the stats, the item values themselves, and what particular point on the sliding scale of crossover benefit between them produces the least expensive use of Itemization Points. The general range around this point on the scale is where you should shoot for with your gear.
Again, Mitigation verses Avoidance suffers from many variables just like comparisons between types of Mitigation.
In GENERAL...
Reason for Tank Death:
Spike Damage> Need higher Mitigation
Healer OOM> Need higher Avoidance
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
 Joanadark
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 Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm
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