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Paladin being guild MT?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Desvelada » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:26 pm

90% of the times, a guild with a Warrior MT is gonna progress a lot much faster than a guild with a Paladin MT.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:33 pm

Desvelada wrote:90% of the times, a guild with a Warrior MT is gonna progress a lot much faster than a guild with a Paladin MT.


Care to site a source?

Or is that your opinion?

And how do you define the term:
progress a lot much faster
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Postby Invisusira » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:35 pm

Desvelada wrote:90% of the times, a guild with a Warrior MT is gonna progress a lot much faster than a guild with a Paladin MT.

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Completely and totally untrue. 110% untrue, I would even venture to say.
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Postby Havn » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:53 pm

That post is hilarious Invis. Reasons why a main tank is better is cause he has control of everything he needs. He is the one throwing up the imp tclap, imp demo shout, and imp commanding. He doesnt have to rely on a dps class speccing a certain way to improve his odds mid fight.

The only difference besides hp(tauren warriors) is the 4% more from defensive stance and the 2 "oh sh*t" skills. The problem is that a warrior MT only needs to ask the paladin healer to put kings up before the fight even starts. We require a solid dps warrior to constantly keep the tclaps/shouts up.

For gimmick fights we get the aoe threat generation and they get spell reflect. We have had one boss fight so far require our gimmick. Council and ROS use the warriors.

So if the pally and warrior have the same skill/gear and such the warrior has the advantage. Can the pally tank do most every fight? Certainly. If you min max then u end up with a warrior.

Im not trying to be a downer or anything. I just wish we would talk more about the disadvantages we have instead of just pushing it off and saying pally tanks can do anything just as well as a warrior. If we do less of that in places blizzard might see then maybe come next expansion we might end up on equal footing as the warriors.
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Postby kalbear » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:58 pm

We can't do everything as well as warriors.

Warriors can't do everything as well as tankadins either.

There are a lot of fights that favor a warrior. There are a fair amount of fights that favor a paladin. There's nothing hugely innate about a warrior that makes them better able to deal with progression though; even the oh shit buttons aren't going to save you so significantly much that you'll progress easily or more easily. As always, it's about skill - skill of your healers, skill of your dps, and your skill.

That isn't to say that there aren't issues with a paladin right now as a tank. The itemization budget is still all over the map, we require way too many item points that do not peform well together. Paladins still have no ranged charge, have horrible issues with spellcasters of any note and have no reasonable answer to fear effects. Paladin threat at high-ends does not progress as quickly as warrior threat and could cap DPS earlier than desired. These are all real issues.

None of them is such a hindrance to progression that you could not move forward.
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Postby Fedaykin98 » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:14 pm

I think this is my first Invisusira cheerleading post. That rocked.

And "gonna progress a lot much faster than a guild with a Paladin MT"? Really? A lot much faster?
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Postby Ashkicker » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:26 pm

Desvelada wrote:90% of the times, a guild with a Warrior MT is gonna progress a lot much faster than a guild with a Paladin MT.
So i see your holy.... ever even been Prot or just an alt of some War that thinks healing is all we're good for????
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Postby Palafix » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:54 pm

Invisusira wrote:
Completely and totally untrue. 110% untrue, I would even venture to say.


Clearly it's only 106.5% untrue. l2 stats.


Also, the question isn't "Are Paladins capable of being guild main tanks?" The question is why aren't there more guilds using Paladin main tanks. One could probably think up of a few rough reasons off of the top her head, but a proper discussion of the subject would need some comprehensive analysis of a number of things, as well as, you know, some real numbers.

Alas, that's material for a good future/rant post which I lack the time to make.
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Postby Splug » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:34 am

What are your arms warriors spec'ing into if not improved thunderclap? The alternatives in rank 2 arms are garbage (for raiding), may as well pick that up. Improved demo shout is the same story in the fury tree: UW is the only even remotely viable alternative, and that's a bit lackluster as well. In most cases, arms warriors run with fury as their secondary tree and fury warriors with arms as their secondary tree. We run two dps warriors (one fury, one arms) and both of them have imp demo/imp TC. I tank as a warrior and I dropped my improved demo shout points months ago in favor of putting the points in arms (for rage economy) and protection (for reduced spell damage).

We run affliction warlocks, and it's their job to apply shadow embrace. It's the shadow priests' job to apply misery. And even when I'm tanking a boss, our arms warrior runs thunderclap and our fury warrior runs demoralizing shout. I cover for it if they're on another target or have a nice threat lead, but the general purpose "single target" encounter leaves me ignoring everything but sunder armor, which my standard threat rotation applies anyway.

Now, commanding shout... you may be on your own, unless you can get a prot warrior to OT for you. Prying the damage warriors away from windfury is going to get you grumbling at the very least. ;)

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Postby Exodius » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:10 am

Hmmm... I think the only boss fight that would "need" a paladin tank would have to be something like this...

It's frontal arc is heavily immune to melee damage. You need to keep an opening for melee or else the melee dps would QQ too much.

But the only way to tank it is through spell damage. It will mainly just react to that.

And it hits hard enough that you can't just have a warlock or something tank it. It does large amounts of normal melee damage back to it's main aggro target.

So I guess some sort of thing with a special shield which stopped melee. But did not work from behind. Maybe make it spell immune at the back but able to be attacked from something from all angles - not a back to the wall or constantly rotating boss.

You would have to be careful though with the melee one side spell the other thing. You need to make it clear that it's main aggro target it will turn on - and that it will hit with melee hard (and preferrable fast if you really want to make it easy for us).

If it turns to you, that's the spell side. Sure, it can turn to a melee tank with higher threat, but then they will face an immune or seriously mitigated side - and hence loose aggro.

It needs to chase people though. And be kite immmune - give it some sort of speed buff. so it can't just be ping ponged by ranged casters - at least not easily. Or maybe some sort of ranged instant death thing like I hear Archimonde has.

Well, that's some thoughts off the top of my head. Gimmicky? You bet you. Paladin tank only? Well, that's what the fight is designed for. :?
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Postby Dragonzbane » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:34 am

Havn wrote:That post is hilarious Invis. Reasons why a main tank is better is cause he has control of everything he needs. He is the one throwing up the imp tclap, imp demo shout, and imp commanding. He doesnt have to rely on a dps class speccing a certain way to improve his odds mid fight.


Can they put Imp Dem and Imp Commanding up at the same time?


Havn wrote:The only difference besides hp(tauren warriors) is the 4% more from defensive stance and the 2 "oh sh*t" skills. The problem is that a warrior MT only needs to ask the paladin healer to put kings up before the fight even starts. We require a solid dps warrior to constantly keep the tclaps/shouts up.


You keep bringing up Tauren Warriors which I don't know much about but I'm pretty sure we outpace them HP wise. In all actuality, you really shouldn't bring up Tauren at all because half the guilds out there (more actually) don't have Tauren available and there are probably some Horde guilds that don't even have Tauren MTs.


Havn wrote:For gimmick fights we get the aoe threat generation and they get spell reflect. We have had one boss fight so far require our gimmick. Council and ROS use the warriors.


1 Boss?

Tidewalker, Al'ar, Solarian and it's helpful during Kael and Akama(if I'm not mistaken). Not to mention it makes all Hyjal trash easier.

Require?
RoS is the only fight that "requires" any specific ability.


Havn wrote:So if the pally and warrior have the same skill/gear and such the warrior has the advantage. Can the pally tank do most every fight? Certainly. If you min max then u end up with a warrior.


If you min/max I dare say you end up with a "team" and not 1 single MT.


Havn wrote:Im not trying to be a downer or anything. I just wish we would talk more about the disadvantages we have instead of just pushing it off and saying pally tanks can do anything just as well as a warrior. If we do less of that in places blizzard might see then maybe come next expansion we might end up on equal footing as the warriors.


It's only a downer if you look at it your way.
If you look at it from the position of where we were then you can only see it as positive. I'd also like to look at the future and where we are going which I see as positive because I don't believe they are done yet. If nothing else there will be improvements come the EXP.

I'm a solid and unwavering supporter of Paladin Tanking buffs.
An "emergency button", a "debuff" and some tweaks to HS to remove it from silence effects(like CS) and give it an overlap would put us on solid MTing ground but still leave warriors better for "Spell" based bosses.
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Postby Havn » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:18 pm

Hp comparison BE Pally vs Tauren Warrior:

Code: Select all
Unbuffed
(x(1.1)(1.06)+137)*10 + 3197 + 150 = ((x+31)(1.05)+141)*10.5 + 4484 + 150
(1.166x + 137)*10 + 3347 = (1.05x + 173.55)*10.5 + 4634
11.66x + 1370 + 3347 = 11.03x + 1822.3 +4634
11.66x + 4717 = 11.03x + 6456.3
.63x = 1739.3
x = 2760.8 stam


Buffed
((x+238)(1.1)(1.06)(1.1) + 137)*10 + 3197 + 150 = ((x+269)(1.05)(1.1) + 141)*10.5 + 4484 + 150
(1.283x + 442.25)*10 + 3347 = (1.155x + 451.69)*10.5 + 4634
12.83x + 4422.5 + 3347 = 12.13x + 4742.7 + 4634
.7x + 7769.5 = 9376.7
.7x = 1607.2
x = 2296 stam


The reason the tauren got +31 is I figured I would include the extra stam warriors get from the gun slot. This is to compare equally geared warriors. If both were wearing the same gear and had the same stam it would have to be 2760.8 before buffs to have more hp. When we are fully buffed we need 2296 stam before buffing to equal their hp. Please check my numbers. The 2760.8 seems high but i can't find any mistakes in the math.

I wasn't completely sure if it was my warriors that just weren't speccing properly or if most fury ones didnt have imp shout/tclap. So that pretty much fixes that problem. So we are just missing the "oh sh*t's", 4% damage reduction and hps(normal + commanding). Alliance side will have an easier time cracking in since they don't have to deal with the extra hp from the Taurens.

I was just pretty shocked that we were still behind after the 10% stam increase that we got. Thats what started me down this road of figuring out the amount of stam I would need to catch the Tauren warrior.

Hp comparison BE Pally vs Non-Tauren Warrior:

Code: Select all
Unbuffed
(x(1.1)(1.06) + 137)*10 + 3197 + 150 = ((x+31)(1.05) + 141)*10 + 4484 + 150
(1.166x + 137)*10 + 3347 = (1.05x + 173.55)*10 + 4634
11.66x + 1370 + 3347 = 10.5x + 1735.5 + 4634
11.66x + 4717 = 10.5x + 6369.5
1.16x = 1652.5
x = 1424.5 stam


Buffed
((x+238)(1.1)(1.06)(1.1) + 137)*10 + 3197 + 150 = ((x+269)(1.05)(1.1) + 141)*10 + 4484 + 150
(1.283x + 442.26)*10 + 3347 = (1.155x + 451.69)*10 + 4634
12.83x + 4422.6 + 3347 = 11.55x + 4516.9 + 4634
12.83x + 7769.6 = 11.55x + 9150.9
1.28x = 1381.3
x = 1079.1 stam


The curve is much better when just looking at warriors. I believe you would have to stack extra stam to reach the 1079.1 mark in t6 gear but it is very doable.

So mostly it is just Tauren warriors that get such an advantage. Although even with some of these wild numbers the difference is never more then roughly 1500hp. So while some of those stam numbers are huge it just takes awhile to overcome their 10.5 hp per stam.
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Postby jere » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:40 pm

Havn, your math is off in a number of spots:

1. You have to include BoK in there. I know both can get it, but it is multiplied by stamina and then health is added in after the fact, so it needs to be there.

2. I can't verify the amount of stamina for BE and Tauren, but I know whatever it is, it is multiplied by CE, SD, and BoK as well. Maybe the numbers you have take that into account somehow, but since you only get whole number stamina values after the multiplication, it needs to be in before the multpliers: BE --> 1.1*1.06*1.1(x + 137) for example, assuming the 137 is the true base, which I don't know.

3. You multiply the Tauren's stamina by 10.5, which should just be 10

4. You forgot to multiply the Tauren's HP by 1.05 (including the true base) unless endurance isn't on the HP pool. Anyone know what is and is not affected by endurance?

5. Double check me, but I believe the gun provides up to 39 stamina, not 31, but double check me on that.

6. I believe there is a hidden -180 HP's somewhere in the equation if I remember correctly. There was a thread at tankspot that highlighted this fact for the equations.

I think there were some more, but the equations definitely need a bunch of work.
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Postby Blaen99 » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:08 pm

Jere forgets one fact:

BoK stacks multiplicatively with CE and SD.

106% * 1.1 * 1.1, or almost 130% hp (128.5% or some crap)
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Postby jere » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:30 pm

Blaen99 wrote:Jere forgets one fact:

BoK stacks multiplicatively with CE and SD.

106% * 1.1 * 1.1, or almost 130% hp (128.5% or some crap)


Nope, I covered it :), but you are correct. I just wasn't as explicit about it as I needed to be probably.

jere wrote:
2. I can't verify the amount of stamina for BE and Tauren, but I know whatever it is, it is multiplied by CE, SD, and BoK as well. Maybe the numbers you have take that into account somehow, but since you only get whole number stamina values after the multiplication, it needs to be in before the multpliers: BE --> 1.1*1.06*1.1(x + 137) for example, assuming the 137 is the true base, which I don't know.
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