Libram of Zeal vs. Libram of Divine Purpose, wasted badges

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Blaen99 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:55 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You still need to equip the badge libram right before you judge command.


Not that difficult, a slight tweak...

/cast SealCom
/equip Libram
/cast Judgement
/equip Libram

BFD, re-seal after.


But that's exactly what I said, you'd have to wait to reseal, I'm not sure why you went through all this just to confirm that. In any event, I just don't think it is worth it.


Never min/max before?

If you don't think this is worth it, I wonder what you think totem twisting would be worth ~.^.


That's not min/max though, you are lowering the DPS of your Ret pally by making his Judgment cause a global cooldown, which is also a nuisance, for a rather tiny increase in your threat.


Are you...serious?

You DO realize what totem twisting entails, right? OMFG, enh shaman using TWO GCDs!
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:21 pm

Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You still need to equip the badge libram right before you judge command.


Not that difficult, a slight tweak...

/cast SealCom
/equip Libram
/cast Judgement
/equip Libram

BFD, re-seal after.


But that's exactly what I said, you'd have to wait to reseal, I'm not sure why you went through all this just to confirm that. In any event, I just don't think it is worth it.


Never min/max before?

If you don't think this is worth it, I wonder what you think totem twisting would be worth ~.^.


That's not min/max though, you are lowering the DPS of your Ret pally by making his Judgment cause a global cooldown, which is also a nuisance, for a rather tiny increase in your threat.


Are you...serious?

You DO realize what totem twisting entails, right? OMFG, enh shaman using TWO GCDs!


I'm not sure why you've constantly been rude in condescending to me in this thread, acting as if my comments are so outrageously stupid, especially in light of the fact that they also happen to be correct.

I'm clearly not talking about totem twisting which is FAR more powerful than what we are talking about here, and is likely going to be removed from the game. I'm talking about having a ret pally swap librams, in this case, allowing his JotC to be affected by the Libram of Zeal. The total increase in threat this would cause, is likely imo within the margin of error of both threat meters and DPSers riding the threat cap as it is, and would in fact cause the ret pally using this technique to likely have a lower DPS because of unsealed hits. My guess is that the potential gains caused by this are either insignificant or offset by the costs, and in other words, not worth the trouble.
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Postby Blaen99 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:37 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You still need to equip the badge libram right before you judge command.


Not that difficult, a slight tweak...

/cast SealCom
/equip Libram
/cast Judgement
/equip Libram

BFD, re-seal after.


But that's exactly what I said, you'd have to wait to reseal, I'm not sure why you went through all this just to confirm that. In any event, I just don't think it is worth it.


Never min/max before?

If you don't think this is worth it, I wonder what you think totem twisting would be worth ~.^.


That's not min/max though, you are lowering the DPS of your Ret pally by making his Judgment cause a global cooldown, which is also a nuisance, for a rather tiny increase in your threat.


Are you...serious?

You DO realize what totem twisting entails, right? OMFG, enh shaman using TWO GCDs!


I'm not sure why you've constantly been rude in condescending to me in this thread, acting as if my comments are so outrageously stupid, especially in light of the fact that they also happen to be correct.

I'm clearly not talking about totem twisting which is FAR more powerful than what we are talking about here, and is likely going to be removed from the game. I'm talking about having a ret pally swap librams, in this case, allowing his JotC to be affected by the Libram of Zeal. The total increase in threat this would cause, is likely imo within the margin of error of both threat meters and DPSers riding the threat cap as it is, and would in fact cause the ret pally using this technique to likely have a lower DPS because of unsealed hits. My guess is that the potential gains caused by this are either insignificant or offset by the costs, and in other words, not worth the trouble.


Let me put it another way.

Have you played ret lately?

Do you realize how little a GCD matters to ret, compared to an enh shaman?

As ret, at least half the time I end up standing around waiting for the next autoattack - it's not like a GCD is going to matter with a 3.6-3.8 speed weap.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:49 pm

Seriously Blaen, watch your tone. If you think someone's wrong or has missed something, just point it out. The condescending tone is unnecessary and should be left on the official forums.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:00 pm

Blaen99 wrote:
Let me put it another way.

Have you played ret lately?

Do you realize how little a GCD matters to ret, compared to an enh shaman?

As ret, at least half the time I end up standing around waiting for the next autoattack - it's not like a GCD is going to matter with a 3.6-3.8 speed weap.


Your math in the first post, put the effects of the libram of zeal at about 7.5 TPS. That is too small of a value to have a noticeable difference when there is some type of cost involved. You are going to have some hits land that are not sealed when you have to wait 25%-30% of your swing time to reseal, unless you waited to judge. It's not a massive loss, but it is a loss that is being taken for, IMO, no perceptible gain.

There is no correlation here to totem twisting and its effects on the shaman. You are talking about the ability to have the effects of two totems of the same school at the same time throughout the fight. That's a massive buff for an entire group, the shaman included, versus 7.5 more TPS for the tank.

If you want to do it, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying I wouldn't bother. I'd let my ret pally use whatever libram he wanted, and that'd be it.
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Postby Blaen99 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:33 pm

Dorvan wrote:Seriously Blaen, watch your tone. If you think someone's wrong or has missed something, just point it out. The condescending tone is unnecessary and should be left on the official forums.


This is the way I've posted for the past ~8 years, Dorvan.

There's nothing condescending about it IMO. While it may be blunt and to the point, I'm not writing full paragraphs to spare someone's feelings. Furthermore, I'd point out the initial blow was landed by the person QQing about my "tone". Might I recommend worrying about people coming into another person's thread first before cracking down on the OP? Or is threadcrapping condoned here, by the natural implication?

Your math in the first post, put the effects of the libram of zeal at about 7.5 TPS. That is too small of a value to have a noticeable difference when there is some type of cost involved. You are going to have some hits land that are not sealed when you have to wait 25%-30% of your swing time to reseal, unless you waited to judge. It's not a massive loss, but it is a loss that is being taken for, IMO, no perceptible gain.

There is no correlation here to totem twisting and its effects on the shaman. You are talking about the ability to have the effects of two totems of the same school at the same time throughout the fight. That's a massive buff for an entire group, the shaman included, versus 7.5 more TPS for the tank.

If you want to do it, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying I wouldn't bother. I'd let my ret pally use whatever libram he wanted, and that'd be it.


If the paladin is using the libram, it is also implied that the paladin is using SoCom. (Note that SoB-using paladins would be using avengement IIRC - the badge libram is specific to SoCom.)

Quick math:

SoCom has a ~20% coefficient (I don't remember if it's modified by time). 47 additional damage per SoCom results in a +~10ish damage per SoCom.

Assuming 3.5 speed weapons, that's roughly +40 AP to SoCom. It also gives an additional ~20.1 damage to JoCom, translating into roughly an additional 2.5 DPS. In essence, another 35-36 AP-equivalancy added onto Judgements.

On top of the original libram's benefit.

While the natural counterargument may be "But this makes the ret paladin swap librams and use a GCD!" my contention is still the same as it was.

What does a GCD matter to a ret paladin? He won't miss a swing due to a lack of a seal if his macro's are setup properly. He is increasing his own DPS, and the tank's threat.

An equivalent argument could be laid out that a holy paladin's non-improved sanctity gives no reason to take a ret paladin for a prot paladin's threat. It may "only" be 2% threat, but many paladins take 2% threat to gloves over 15 agility, just the same as many high-end DPS (All?) take -2% threat to cloak.

Single digit improvements are the name of the game in WoW - they all act multiplicatively.

Furthermore, those were straight DPS figures, not TPS figures as someone recently pointed out to me. Allow me to modify them properly.

7.5 DPS (Your quote) modified by 12% sanctity becomes 8.4 DPS. Multiplied by 1.9, it becomes roughly 16 TPS. Throw in 2% threat to gloves, you are looking at 16.3ish TPS.

It may "only" be 16.3ish TPS, but I will get less TPS than that from upgrading from S2 to the S3 mace.

Arguing that it is a "waste of a ret paladin's time" leads to the natural extension of the argument that "going from the S2 to the S3 mace is a waste of a prot paladin's time" - The libram swapping method represents a +47 holy damage increase to the ret paladin. S2 to S3 is only on the order of 20-25 +damage.

In essence, a troll. As I mentioned in my response to Dorvan. I will detail it further why I deem this a troll - and with numbers!

Furthermore, this is ignoring the actual +47 spell damage vs. the SoR libram (Note this statement carefully Dorvan - it's very important to prior statements) which offers a margin far greater than 7.5 DPS. One moment.

Consecrate gains 44.838 raw damage from the libram. With multiplers applied, it becomes 50.22 raw damage. Once all is said and done, it becomes 97-98 raw threat. This translates into a rough 12.2 TPS increase from consecrate alone.

JoR gains 33.6 DPS from this libram. 37.6 raw damage - roughly 73 raw threat. 9.12 raw TPS gain from it.

SoR has a 9.2% coefficient per 1 sec on weapon speed. 4.32 rough DPS - 4.85 modified DPS. 9.4 additional TPS after mods.

HS gains roughly 2.5 damage per block from it, assuming 1 block per 2 seconds, that's 1.4 modified damage. In other words, it's roughly +3.5 TPS.

Overall, you gain roughly a 12.2+9.12+9.4+3.5 or nearly 35 TPS from the libram. Not 7.5. On top of the personal gains for the ret paladin, assuming he's a SoCom type, which were hardly insignificant, on top of the bonuses from his other libram.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:18 pm

Blaen99 wrote:This is the way I've posted for the past ~8 years, Dorvan.

There's nothing condescending about it IMO. While it may be blunt and to the point, I'm not writing full paragraphs to spare someone's feelings. Furthermore, I'd point out the initial blow was landed by the person QQing about my "tone". Might I recommend worrying about people coming into another person's thread first before cracking down on the OP? Or is threadcrapping condoned here, by the natural implication?


What a bunch of garbage. You weren't posting the cold hard truth, you were posting stuff like "Err, what?", questions to my understanding of fundamental concepts (which weren't even particularly relevant), "Are you...serious?" and the rest of that whole little diatribe. I never once landed a blow of any sort, I didn't need to. When you post stuff like that, its intent is to discredit my post without posting facts. It all spawned from me saying that I didn't think it was worth messing with since it created another GCD for the ret pally. Your initial "Err, what" was trying say that it didn't, of course, you were wrong about that.

Blaen99 wrote:If the paladin is using the libram, it is also implied that the paladin is using SoCom. (Note that SoB-using paladins would be using avengement IIRC - the badge libram is specific to SoCom.)

Quick math:

SoCom has a ~20% coefficient (I don't remember if it's modified by time). 47 additional damage per SoCom results in a +~10ish damage per SoCom.

Assuming 3.5 speed weapons, that's roughly +40 AP to SoCom. It also gives an additional ~20.1 damage to JoCom, translating into roughly an additional 2.5 DPS. In essence, another 35-36 AP-equivalancy added onto Judgements.

On top of the original libram's benefit.

While the natural counterargument may be "But this makes the ret paladin swap librams and use a GCD!" my contention is still the same as it was.

What does a GCD matter to a ret paladin? He won't miss a swing due to a lack of a seal if his macro's are setup properly. He is increasing his own DPS, and the tank's threat.

An equivalent argument could be laid out that a holy paladin's non-improved sanctity gives no reason to take a ret paladin for a prot paladin's threat. It may "only" be 2% threat, but many paladins take 2% threat to gloves over 15 agility, just the same as many high-end DPS (All?) take -2% threat to cloak.

Single digit improvements are the name of the game in WoW - they all act multiplicatively.

Furthermore, those were straight DPS figures, not TPS figures as someone recently pointed out to me. Allow me to modify them properly.

7.5 DPS (Your quote) modified by 12% sanctity becomes 8.4 DPS. Multiplied by 1.9, it becomes roughly 16 TPS. Throw in 2% threat to gloves, you are looking at 16.3ish TPS.

It may "only" be 16.3ish TPS, but I will get less TPS than that from upgrading from S2 to the S3 mace.

Arguing that it is a "waste of a ret paladin's time" leads to the natural extension of the argument that "going from the S2 to the S3 mace is a waste of a prot paladin's time" - The libram swapping method represents a +47 holy damage increase to the ret paladin. S2 to S3 is only on the order of 20-25 +damage.

In essence, a troll. As I mentioned in my response to Dorvan. I will detail it further why I deem this a troll - and with numbers!

Furthermore, this is ignoring the actual +47 spell damage vs. the SoR libram (Note this statement carefully Dorvan - it's very important to prior statements) which offers a margin far greater than 7.5 DPS. One moment.

Consecrate gains 44.838 raw damage from the libram. With multiplers applied, it becomes 50.22 raw damage. Once all is said and done, it becomes 97-98 raw threat. This translates into a rough 12.2 TPS increase from consecrate alone.

JoR gains 33.6 DPS from this libram. 37.6 raw damage - roughly 73 raw threat. 9.12 raw TPS gain from it.

SoR has a 9.2% coefficient per 1 sec on weapon speed. 4.32 rough DPS - 4.85 modified DPS. 9.4 additional TPS after mods.


So are you saying that your original math was incorrect/incomplete? In the OP you said that the libram of zeal gives you 7.405 TPS in a best case scneario, you are now saying it is much more. I based my comments on your data, my 7.5 number was simply a rounding of your 7.405. If your initial data is wrong, then it is certainly possible my conclusion is also wrong. I do find it a bit funny though that I use your own incorrect information when reaching a conclusion, and you call me a troll for doing so.

As for saying it all adds up, and ridiculously extending my waste of time comments to some silly analogy like upgrading from seaon 2 to a seaon 3 mace is a waste of time, that is completley without merit. The reason I suggested it would be a waste was because based on your data, the threat gain was insignficant AND it came at a COST. If the judgment causes a global cooldown, there will be unsealed hits. Had this been free, then why wouldn't you do it? Upgrading your gear of course, has no negative impact on the raid, and as such is not a fair comparison.

Also, I was not and am not trolling. I've posted more than 1000 posts on this board, mostly with the intent to flush out the details of things like this. If this turns out to be worth it, I think it's great, from your initial data it didn't look like it was.
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Postby Joanadark » Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:37 am

That is incorrect, the Macros do not stop. That second macro will actually work sometimes and sometimes not. When it doesn't work though, you'll get an error saying "You can't do that yet" meaning it didn't stop, it just couldn't execute the judgment. Macros have a timing problem because they are executed asynchronously, meaning they don't wait for a command to finish before continuing to the next. The reason that macro sometimes doesn't judge, is because it executes so quickly that you actually haven't sealed yet as far as the server is concerned.


Are you sure about this?

My understanding has always been that stopping macros was the entire purpose for the EXISTANCE of the global cooldown.
The reasoning being that without such functionality it would be perfectly possible to create massive super-macros to execute a "bot" to play your character for you.
Additionally, once could overcome the limits of human reaction time by simply stringing together massive sequences of actions allowing a character to accomplish things that would not be possible by a player simply hitting their own buttons, which would be clearly game-breaking and unbalanced.

Now, granted, I havn't utilized any macros that would attempt to break through the "GCD actions stop the macro" understanding, because thats what I've always believed was the case.
If I am incorrect though, could you direct me to where you got your own information?

Oh, and lol @ calling Fridmarr a troll.

Blaen, please chill. Flaming isnt constructive, no matter how justifiable you may think it is.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:30 am

Fridmarr wrote:What a bunch of garbage. You weren't posting the cold hard truth, you were posting stuff like "Err, what?", questions to my understanding of fundamental concepts (which weren't even particularly relevant), "Are you...serious?" and the rest of that whole little diatribe. I never once landed a blow of any sort, I didn't need to. When you post stuff like that, its intent is to discredit my post without posting facts. It all spawned from me saying that I didn't think it was worth messing with since it created another GCD for the ret pally. Your initial "Err, what" was trying say that it didn't, of course, you were wrong about that.


Good discussion was going in on this thread, then you chimed in on nothing but opinion.

And I can quote it if you want?
So are you saying that your original math was incorrect/incomplete? In the OP you said that the libram of zeal gives you 7.405 TPS in a best case scneario, you are now saying it is much more. I based my comments on your data, my 7.5 number was simply a rounding of your 7.405. If your initial data is wrong, then it is certainly possible my conclusion is also wrong. I do find it a bit funny though that I use your own incorrect information when reaching a conclusion, and you call me a troll for doing so.

As for saying it all adds up, and ridiculously extending my waste of time comments to some silly analogy like upgrading from seaon 2 to a seaon 3 mace is a waste of time, that is completley without merit. The reason I suggested it would be a waste was because based on your data, the threat gain was insignficant AND it came at a COST. If the judgment causes a global cooldown, there will be unsealed hits. Had this been free, then why wouldn't you do it? Upgrading your gear of course, has no negative impact on the raid, and as such is not a fair comparison.

Also, I was not and am not trolling. I've posted more than 1000 posts on this board, mostly with the intent to flush out the details of things like this. If this turns out to be worth it, I think it's great, from your initial data it didn't look like it was.


And the first sentence in this quote is final and definitive proof this is nothing but a troll.

You did not read the OP. You chimed in with nothing but opinion, which killed the thread. The very definition of threadcrapping, or troling, which is what made me leave the Blizzard forums.

Kindly go to threads other than my own.

Joana: It's fairly easy to work around the macro limitations. As I mentioned, at most, it would cost a ret paladin 1 GCD that, with proper macros, would cost the paladin nothing.

However, the person claiming that the Judgement wouldn't be executed is flat out wrong. Judgements are virtually always executed regardless of the situation - with only two exceptions, the only notable one being when Judgement is still on c/d.

If it didn't work that way, my macro:

/cast SoR
/stopcasting
/cast Judgement

would be farked.
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Postby Invisusira » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:38 am

Blaen99 wrote:And the first sentence in this quote is final and definitive proof this is nothing but a troll.

?

All I see is you jumping down his throat for misreading your post...



Blaen99: Kind sir, I think you misread my post. I said a 7.405 TPS advantage.
Fridmarr: I see! I was quite mistaken, my good man.
Blaen99: Perfectly understandable.
Fridmarr: Tea and crumpets?
Blaen99: Please.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:46 am

Invisusira wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:And the first sentence in this quote is final and definitive proof this is nothing but a troll.

?

All I see is you jumping down his throat for misreading your post...



Blaen99: Kind sir, I think you misread my post. I said a 7.405 TPS advantage.
Fridmarr: I see! I was quite mistaken, my good man.
Blaen99: Perfectly understandable.
Fridmarr: Tea and crumpets?
Blaen99: Please.


Closer to "The OP was a comparison between the Libram of Divine Judgement and the Libram of Zeal"

Then said person turned those numbers into an argument against using Libram of Zeal vs. no libram to boost threat.

Apples and oranges, Invis.
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Postby Invisusira » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:47 am

I will admit I haven't delved into this thread in its entirety, I only purchased the footnotes.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:49 am

Invisusira wrote:I will admit I haven't delved into this thread in its entirety, I only purchased the footnotes.


Again, using the OP's numbers (Which is a comparison between Libram of Zeal and Libram of Divine Purpose or w/e) as an argument to not use the Libram of Zeal vs. no Libram to increase threat is two entirely different things.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:04 pm

Blaen99 wrote:
Invisusira wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:And the first sentence in this quote is final and definitive proof this is nothing but a troll.

?

All I see is you jumping down his throat for misreading your post...



Blaen99: Kind sir, I think you misread my post. I said a 7.405 TPS advantage.
Fridmarr: I see! I was quite mistaken, my good man.
Blaen99: Perfectly understandable.
Fridmarr: Tea and crumpets?
Blaen99: Please.


Closer to "The OP was a comparison between the Libram of Divine Judgement and the Libram of Zeal"

Then said person turned those numbers into an argument against using Libram of Zeal vs. no libram to boost threat.

Apples and oranges, Invis.


Stop lying. You jumped down my throat when I said it would cause a GCD for the Ret pally. Which is really all that I had said to that point, and it is 100% correct. You will also have unsealed hits, about 1 every 3rd or 4th judgment. I didn't crap on your thread, I read it because it was about a libram in which I have more than a passing interest.

You can call me names all you want, that doesn't make it true. I've actually read your OP several times, it is ambigous to say the least. Since it seems I did read it wrong, I apologize for that, and the data may in fact warrant the libram swapping.
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Postby Dandreai » Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:20 pm

Troll (Internet)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Internet troll)
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"Do not feed the trolls" redirects here. For the Wikipedia essay, see Wikipedia:What is a troll?.

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum or group with the singular intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.[1] It often has a broader meaning referring to any shady trouble making Internet activity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll


Now that we know exactly what a troll is. Play nice, game on. I see this getting locked very quickly. What had originally peaked my interest as far as useful information (I have a ret. pally too) seemed to lose it's luster with the extra crap on the side. Guess I'll have to keep stepping around the BS to get what I came for. Facts.
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