Block value versus Stamina...

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Joanadark » Sat May 12, 2007 2:22 am

perhaps. While it certainly isnt anywhere near useful as an avoidance replacement, I still think that there is a real use for spanning the transition gap at least *some* of the time, as opposed to *never*, which is the case with an avoidance gearing system.

you're compounding the numbers for effect a little overly to my mind. As far as the chance of it being up and useful, any of HS charge-using blocks #3-8 (assuming 8 are used, move back 1 for every 1 less expended)triggering it would allow Redoubt to be active to cover the transition.

10% + 10% + 10% + 10% + 10% isn't quite so long odds as you make it out to be when you actually do the math.

oh, and before you say it, yes its dependant on using up a maximum number of blocks, but thats the entire point of the gearing theory; having a significant amount of your mitigation bring block rather than parry, dodge, or miss beyond the base from uncrittable defense so that the majority of attacks ARE blocks.

even if the transition is only reinforced 1/3 of the time I would consider it to be a worthwhile investment, considering the frequency we are vulnerable in this manner.
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Postby Julian » Sat May 12, 2007 10:01 am

Joanadark wrote:An interesting effect of comparing avoidance with block chance for accomplishing uncrushability is the fact that more blocked attacks and less avoided ones means that much larger a proportion of potential redoubt and reckoning procing.


You're correct about reckoning, and I would add that in general the lower-evasion, higher-BV tank will generate substantially more threat through reckoning procs, HS, BoSanc, various damage shields, and the like.

(A warrior tank stacking BV over evasion will also generate threat more smoothly because rage generation will be less spiky, although there's a point where you're just fighting the GCD anyway there.)

This is assuming that we're trading out dodge/to-be-missed rather than parry; parry has a non-negligible impact on threat generation because of the effect on the swing timer, and it's an interesting question to which I do not have the answer whether a paladin is better off threatwise with parry over BV. (My intuition is that the answer is no for paladins and yes for warriors, because we have HS and they have Heroic Strike.)

However, it should seem intuitive that the best-case scenario for having a block percentage buff up at any given time is going to be worse the faster your charges are getting eaten, not better. Redoubt makes the impact less than it might otherwise be, but your best strategy for not taking any unblocked hits is still to take less hits total.

Post-Imp HS, this only really matters for multi-mob scenarios anyway.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat May 12, 2007 6:09 pm

Using a tank simulator that records 10,000 hits and an entered attack speed of 1.0 I actually got crushed and hit more by favoring block rating to dodge.

Here's my results averaged over 100,000 hits (10 runs)

23% block
17% dodge
17% parry
250 block value

This yielded me

Missed: 10.42%
Dodged: 17.29%
Parried: 17.33%
Blocked: 54.87%
Hit: 0.04%
Crushing: 0.05%
Back-to-back crushing blows received: 0
Redoubt up-time: 38.90%
Damage reduced: 79.30%
DTPS: 2224.9806
Avarage hit: 4048

Avarage Holy Shield charges remaining: 2.58
Avarage threat caused by Holy Shield
(using Righteous Fury at 210 damage per block): 2916.93
Your block value reduced damage by: 5.81%


Now with
20% block
20% dodge
17% parry
250 block value

Missed: 11.14%
Dodged: 19.72%
Parried: 16.80%
Blocked: 52.29%
Hit: 0.03%
Crushing: 0.02%
Back-to-back crushing blows received: 0
Redoubt up-time: 35.60%
Damage reduced: 80.30%
DTPS: 2118.231
Avarage hit: 4047

Avarage Holy Shield charges remaining: 2.82
Avarage threat caused by Holy Shield
(using Righteous Fury at 210 damage per block): 2792.84
Your block value reduced damage by: 5.81%


It's a delicate balance in a situation such as this, avoidance can almost be more reliable gap coverage than redoubt, though not as directly. It pads charges a bit so they aren't used up as frequently, which you can see in that I typically had more charges left over with the higher dodge. Also, beyond mitigating the need for any gap coverage I still have a good chance at avoiding a hit or crush when that coverage goes down.

There is one huge caveat in these numbers though, I didn't write this simulator, and I don't believe it allows for a lag in holy shield coverage. When I do parse the combat log, though, the number of times I'm saved by redoubt is actually quite small, it tends to get burned right along with holy shield. I can't remember if redoubt can proc while already procd and to refresh the charges, this sim does not allow for that. That would make a big difference. Well if a boss with this type of attack mechanism was found with any reliability, but sadly it's not.

I just find redoubt is an insurance policy to help when I'm unlucky, but I require a bit of luck for redoubt to be in place at the exact moment I need it. My avoidance is always there. Avoidance also tends to smooth out dmg on very fast attacking mobs, which cause the need in the first place, as opposed to the spikey way they work with slower mobs. In any event, I still think favoring block rating and stacking block value has enormous potential after the patch, and I still think redoubt in its current form is merely a talent sink.
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Postby quiescence » Sat May 12, 2007 9:30 pm

im surprised no one has mentioned this before in comparison to stats...

what would you rather use?
- moroes lucky pocket watch
- gnomeregan autoblocker
- netherwing trinky (+45 stamina) that comes from the netherdrake quest chain

because when we realisticly gear up, we dont have much choice in other item departments. (justicar vs handguards of the maiden, only one belt to choose from, justicar helm vs stalwart defender, etc). our trinket slot offers the best place to do a direct comparision though.
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Postby Barter » Sat May 12, 2007 10:12 pm

quiescence wrote:im surprised no one has mentioned this before in comparison to stats...

what would you rather use?
- moroes lucky pocket watch
- gnomeregan autoblocker
- netherwing trinky (+45 stamina) that comes from the netherdrake quest chain

because when we realisticly gear up, we dont have much choice in other item departments. (justicar vs handguards of the maiden, only one belt to choose from, justicar helm vs stalwart defender, etc). our trinket slot offers the best place to do a direct comparision though.


if i had to choose from those 3 i would use +45 sta one and moroes trinket most of the time
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun May 13, 2007 1:06 am

It's a tough call for sure, I think i'm going to be grabbing the Auto Blocker to work in to my gear. Mores hasn't given up the pocket watch for me yet.
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Postby Julian » Sun May 13, 2007 8:06 am

Fridmarr wrote:It's a tough call for sure, I think i'm going to be grabbing the Auto Blocker to work in to my gear. Mores hasn't given up the pocket watch for me yet.


I picked up the Autoblocker this week and I absolutely love it.

It makes a dramatic difference for instancing and for trash, and post 2.1 that difference will be even more stark.

The click effect is also insane when you're in the middle of a heap of mobs. Even if the only things you block are your 4 charges of HS from the first 10 seconds of the 20-second buff, that's still 1040 more damage you're not taking straight off the bat, and at 260 effective BV you're typically soaking up many many times that number.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun May 13, 2007 11:17 am

Julian wrote:I picked up the Autoblocker this week and I absolutely love it.

It makes a dramatic difference for instancing and for trash, and post 2.1 that difference will be even more stark.

The click effect is also insane when you're in the middle of a heap of mobs. Even if the only things you block are your 4 charges of HS from the first 10 seconds of the 20-second buff, that's still 1040 more damage you're not taking straight off the bat, and at 260 effective BV you're typically soaking up many many times that number.


I don't suppose its on a separate cooldown from the Colossus trinket (that heals for 120 on block)?
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Postby Julian » Sun May 13, 2007 12:44 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I don't suppose its on a separate cooldown from the Colossus trinket (that heals for 120 on block)?


Indeed it is.
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