Warrior vs. Paladin mitigation

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Strom » Wed May 09, 2007 6:54 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Aergis wrote:In layman's terms, it's not 4%, but it's not 1% either like I thought in the original post. From Fridmarr's simluation post, he shows it to be closer to 2.25% more damage taken by the paladin.


The simulator varies a bit, but more often then not, it seems to be in the upper 2's to low 3's. I've not averaged it out or anything. Basically, after the patch (in theory) we won't take a regular hit or a crushing blow, and that is where we make up some ground on a warrior who has identical stats.


One thing this does not cover is the fact that a paladin is crushable for a small time frame while refreshing HS due to server lag. Until they give our HS a 9sec cooldown, we will always have a chance to be crushable :(
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed May 09, 2007 10:34 am

Strom wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Aergis wrote:In layman's terms, it's not 4%, but it's not 1% either like I thought in the original post. From Fridmarr's simluation post, he shows it to be closer to 2.25% more damage taken by the paladin.


The simulator varies a bit, but more often then not, it seems to be in the upper 2's to low 3's. I've not averaged it out or anything. Basically, after the patch (in theory) we won't take a regular hit or a crushing blow, and that is where we make up some ground on a warrior who has identical stats.


One thing this does not cover is the fact that a paladin is crushable for a small time frame while refreshing HS due to server lag. Until they give our HS a 9sec cooldown, we will always have a chance to be crushable :(


That's correct, which is why I said "in theory." IMO Imp Holy shield should be 10% dmg, 1 second duration, and 1 charge per talent point. Leaving us with 6 charges but a 12 second duration and a 10 second cooldown, and the same dmg gain.
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Postby Gideon » Fri May 25, 2007 4:41 am

Going to rez this thread to see if anybody can do some maths for a lazy man.

Slow day in the office so I found myself thinking about damage reduction:

1) If, when other forms of DR are taken into account, the 4% difference between def stance and imp RF is closer to 1-2% in actual damage taken during an encounter then is the 75% damage reduction from Shield Wall really effectively 75%? What would be the difference in damage taken during it's duration?

2) Once the actual effective impact of Shield Wall is known the next step is calculate the effectiveness of Imp LoH. This would require someone to calculate the effective damage reduction granted by the +30% AC and then possibly converting the damage reduction from Shield Wall and Imp LoH into effective health (as per theorycraft on the warrior boards) so that the health restored by LoH could be factored somehow.

Any mathematicians available?
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Postby Arcand » Fri May 25, 2007 9:07 am

Gideon wrote:1) If, when other forms of DR are taken into account, the 4% difference between def stance and imp RF is closer to 1-2% in actual damage taken during an encounter then is the 75% damage reduction from Shield Wall really effectively 75%? What would be the difference in damage taken during it's duration?


I'm not remarkably well-informed about warrior mechanics, so please let me know if I've screwed up. In particular I wonder about how D-stance and Shield Wall stack - is it damage x 0.9 x 0.25 as I assumed, or do they add 75% and 10% to get 85% and do damage x 0.15? Also, is Shield Wall applied before or after the block value is subtracted off?

Assume a warrior with 46% avoidance and 57% mitigation who blocks for 250. (I pulled those numbers out of the air but they're close to my own - currently I'm in 4-5 Karazhan/Heroic epics and the rest is pretty good 5-man blues.) Stick this warrior in front of the Curator, who hits for something like 7500 raw damage every two seconds.

7500/2 = 3750 raw damage per second.

46% of attacks fail to land so 54% do land. 3750 x 0.54 = 2025 DPS.

57% of damage is soaked by armor so 43% gets through. 2025 x 0.43 = 871 DPS.

Defensive Stance shaves off 10% so 90% gets through that. 871 x 0.90 = 784 DPS.

Let's say he's sloppy with Shield Block so only 90% of hits get blocked; that's an effective block of 0.90 x 250 = 225 blocked every 2 seconds or 113 per second.

784 - 113 = 671 DPS taken.

Total reduction = 1 - (taken damage/raw damage) = 1 - 671/3750 = 82%.

Pop Shield Wall - 671 DPS taken is multiplied by 0.25 and becomes 168 DPS taken.

Total reduction = 1 - (taken damage/raw damage) = 1 - 168/3750 = 96%.

If you want to make Shield Wall sound amazing, say that it quadruples your time-to-death. If you want to trivialize it, say that it increases your damage reduction by 17% - the incremental difference from 82 to 96.
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Postby Raskii » Tue May 29, 2007 9:13 am

Aergis wrote:
So in layman's terms, a good way of saying this is: The damage reduction from Defensive Stance and Righteous Fury is applied after the damage reduction from Armor?


Since it's multiplicitave it doesn't matter if it comes before or after. My original thought was that since it is included on top of armor reduction it should not be a straight 4% decrease per hit. Fridmarr notes the miscalulation in my math, and says we shouldn't compare single hit damage to overall damage taken over time.

In layman's terms, it's not 4%, but it's not 1% either like I thought in the original post. From Fridmarr's simluation post, he shows it to be closer to 2.25% more damage taken by the paladin.


Hi all! I'm kinda new to the forums (well, a new poster anyway) so go easy on me! :D

Anyway, I have a question. . .

Let's assume, for the purposes of this example, that we have a Warrior and a Paladin both with exactly 13551 Armor (53.12% damage reduction against a 73 mob) and that they both take a blow that deals a base damage of exactly 20,000 without blocking or otherwise mitigating it.

There are two ways that the actual damage could be calculated:
  1. (BD - (BD * DR%)) * (1 - DRfS) or
  2. (BD - (BD * (DR% + DRfS)).
So which one is it?

Note: BD means Base Damage, DR% is Damage Reduction %, and DRfS is Damage Reduction from Skills/Talents (a.k.a. Defensive Stance or Imp. RF).

If it's the first one, the math looks like this:
Warrior = (20000 - (20000 * 0.5312) * 0.9 = 8438 damage
Paladin = (20000 - (20000 * 0.5312) * 0.94 = 8813 damage

So we'd take 375 more damage for a difference of +4.44%.

If it's the second one however, the math would look like this:
Warrior = (20000 - (20000 * (0.5312 + 0.1)) = 7376 damage
Paladin = (20000 - (20000 * (0.5312 + 0.06)) = 8176 damage

In this case, we'd be taking 800 more damage for a whopping +10.85%!

I know that, so far on this thread, it looks like the former method, but do we really know which one it is? Is it possible that, in the example used by the OP, he actually just had better/more armor than the Warrior that was the OT?
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