Warrior vs. Paladin mitigation

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Warrior vs. Paladin mitigation

Postby Aergis » Tue May 08, 2007 1:24 pm

Tanking gruul last night ( which went really well, btw. Much easier than I thought it would be ), I came to a simple realization that I had simply overlooked before... Warrior defensive stance does not reduce damage taken by 4% more than paladin righteous fury.

Previously I had always assumed warrior would take 4% less overall damage from defensive stance. Since I was tanking gruul and our prot warrior taking the hurtful strikes, he was trying very hard to keep up on secondary threat. We used a hunter misdirect on him to help keep him #2. A couple times he passed me and I was taking hurtful strike, and him tanking. Then I'd get it back.

I recently installed recap, a mod that breaks down almost all aspects of a fight. When I looked at the numbers for the gruul fight, our min damage taken, max damage taken, and avg. damage were almost identical. Even our total damage taken through the course of the fight was near identical, I took 910,000, he took 899,500. That means I took 1.011% more damage.

So I started thinking about why that was. I never really though before that for melee attacks, whether the stance / rigtheous fury comes before or after armor reduction, it's still the same amount. So I did some math, and suprized myself.

Take a 20,000 base damage hit, say special attack like Maulgar's mighty blow or gruul's hurtful strike. Let's say 60% mitigation from armor and compare RF to defensive stance.

6% reduction from Righteous fury :
20,000 * ( 1 - 0.60 ) * ( 1 - 0.06 ) = 7520

10% reduction from defensive stance :
20,000 * ( 1 - 0.60 ) * ( 1 - 0.10 ) = 7200

So a paladin will take 320 extra damage. If we look at how much more % damage that is, we find that 7520 / 7200 = 1.044% more damage. Interesting that it's so close to the full gruul fight above, where I took 1.011% more damage...

And this 1.044% damage is static, whether it's a hurtful strike from gruul or a wet-noodle hit from an aoe guest pack in kara.

4000 * ( 1 - 0.60 ) * ( 1 - 0.06 ) = 1504
4000 * ( 1 - 0.60 ) * ( 1 - 0.10 ) = 1440

1504 / 1440 = 1.044%

So in the end, it's not a real 4% damage taken reduction. It comes along with the damage reduction from armor. And the percentage difference between 70% and 66% is less noticable than 10% to 6%.


Sorry if this is a late realization on my part. I have heard many many times "You will take 4% more damage than an equal geared warrior from defensive stance alone", and simply enough it looks correct when comparing the talents and overall abilities.

So mitigation is less of a problem that I thought before. We have access and can use gear of the exact same armor values. We end up with almost the same miss / dodge / parry / block, which varies so much player to player anyway, and cater's to your own playstyle. I've seen warriors with 24% dodge and 15% block, or 30% block and 15% dodge, paladins with 28% dodge and 20% block, or 15% dodge and 25% block, etc. So where does this magical "Warriors have so much better mitigation" come from when concerning melee bosses like Gruul?

Although, when it comes to magic abilities, we do in fact take 6% more straight damage from the difference of imp def stance to spell warding, unless you look at resistances too. And based one what we just saw, I would speculate that 70 resistance ( aura ) in a school would equal somewhere along the lines of 6% damage, but I don't want to do that math now...
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Postby Lore » Tue May 08, 2007 1:34 pm

The "warriors have better mitigation" thing comes from 2 major issues:

#1: Random crushing blows due to instant cast bug. I expect 2.1 to make a lot of people go "Wow, you're taking a lot less damage now"

#2: Lower HP = our health bar moves faster, which is percieved as "OMG you're taking a lot of damage."
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Re: Warrior vs. Paladin mitigation

Postby Alixander » Tue May 08, 2007 1:36 pm

Interesting post in general. Well said.

Aergis wrote:Although, when it comes to magic abilities, we do in fact take 6% more straight damage from the difference of imp def stance to spell warding, unless you look at resistances too. And based one what we just saw, I would speculate that 70 resistance ( aura ) in a school would equal somewhere along the lines of 6% damage, but I don't want to do that math now...
Counterpoint to our resistance aura giving us equal magical mitigation is that if you pair up a Paladin with a Warrior, then they can get the same effect. There's nothing you can pair up with us which will give us back that 4% we don't have. :(
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue May 08, 2007 1:44 pm

I'm not sure that's the right math. If a warrior takes a hit for 7200, and you take 4% more per hit then 7200 * 1.04 = 7488. In your example you actually took 320 more damage than the warrior so 320/7200 = .044, so 4.4% more damage.
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Postby Aergis » Tue May 08, 2007 1:51 pm

There's nothing you can pair up with us which will give us back that 4% we don't have.


Yeah, but in the grand scheme of things, no one is meant to be "the better" tank on everything ( at least that's the goal I think they are shooting for, they haven't hit it yet ). The are other problems with paladins and casters anyway, like not being able to block while the boss is casting a 3 second spell. If they cast alot there's a huge chunk of holy shield threat gone. On top of that, casters are often the more likely ones to silence, fear, put up a magic shield, etc. For casters on all regards of tanking, paladins are probably the worst choice. Considering we are ( rather, will be in 2.1 ) the best for fast attacking melee classes, this would make sense and seem a fair trade-off.

#2: Lower HP = our health bar moves faster, which is percieved as "OMG you're taking a lot of damage."


Our prot warrior was about 800 hp above me while we were equally buffed last night, though I had higher dodge and armor, he had higher block rating. After patch, being able to free up a trinket slot that hp gap will close to 350 unless he does the same :lol:
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Re: Warrior vs. Paladin mitigation

Postby Arcand » Tue May 08, 2007 1:53 pm

Aergis wrote:Sorry if this is a late realization on my part. I have heard many many times "You will take 4% more damage than an equal geared warrior from defensive stance alone", and simply enough it looks correct when comparing the talents and overall abilities.


And it is correct, if the warrior and paladin tank naked with no other buffs whatsoever. :)
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Postby Gideon » Tue May 08, 2007 1:53 pm

I actually noticed something similar, except using the tankpoints mod.

Loaded up tank points and asked a warrior buddy to do the same. We both swapped in an out of RF/def stance and compared values.

My total damage reduction went up by about 2% with RF (3/3 imp RF). His total DR went up by slightly more than 3%.

Conclusion? For whatever reason, taken with AC/dodge/block/parry/missed/etc, you only get about a third of these def stance/RF values to your overall damage reduction.

Good news: The difference in mitigation between a warrior and a paladin is only a smidgen more than 1%.

More good news: We fiddled with values and found that the benefit from RF/def stance is reduced if you have more dodge/parry (and block but to a lesser extent). The difference was about 1% when we were both in Kara epics. The difference will be smaller as both of us improve our gear (assuming my gear is as good as his later on...).

So, assuming paladin tanking itemisation is equal to warrior tanking itemisation as I progress through the 25 man scene, the mitigation gap will close. Time is on *my* side.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue May 08, 2007 2:34 pm

Ok, the more I read this thread the more confused I get.

I think the original post is misleading. First the math is a little off. When the 2 hits are compared 7520 to 7200, using the method that was used, you aren't finding the percentage difference, you are finding what percent 7520 is of 7200. The answer is 104.4%, in other words the pally in that example took 4.4% more damage than the warrior. That is the part I find misleading.

That said, the post starts by comparing total dmg taken, and I will agree that a warrior will typically not take 4% less damage than a pally assuming the same stats, but you can't really compare total dmg taken to dmg taken on a single hit.

There is a tanking simulator I use that will actually show a comparison run between a pally/war/druid over 10,000 hits (I think). It was on a blue tagged post on the EU forums... http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... =1&sid=1#0 but I have trouble getting to it now. However, the URL from which you can dowload it is http://rapidshare.com/files/27320912/tanksimv3.jar.html

Also, you can see an archive of the thread here http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/en/275607623.htm

Now, this simulator is a bit crude but it allows you to enter some various stats to simulate some specific things. Also, it assumes Imp Holy Shield, which is why your pally will almost never see a crushing blow. It gives a pretty good comparison, and you will see that given the same stats, you will take more dmg than a warrior, but not by 4% typically.

Here's an example, same stats for me and a warrior, and on a boss that hits for 10k every 2.0 seconds.

Simulator wrote:The Druid took 9.71% more damage than the Warrior.
The Druid took 7.26% more damage than the Paladin.
The Paladin took 2.28% more damage than the Warrior.
The Paladin took 7.26% less damage than the Druid.

The Druid took an avarage hit of: 3541
The Warrior took an avarage hit of: 3938
The Paladin took an avarage hit of: 4046

The Druid took 1564 crushing blows and 236 double crushing blows.
The Warrior took 86 crushing blows and 0 double crushing blows.
The Paladin took 0 crushing blows and 0 double crushing blows.

The Druid took a maximum burst damage of 22055 in 10 seconds (2205 DTPS).
The Warrior took a maximum burst damage of 21808 in 10 seconds (2180 DTPS).
The Paladin took a maximum burst damage of 20230 in 10 seconds (2023 DTPS).


Ignore the druid numbers because I didn't change the druid's stats from the default. The only difference between the pally's stats and the warriors stats is that the warrior had 5% more to block, as they typically would from talents. The rest are the same.

Since after the next patch we block every hit, we become the least burst likely tank, even though we take more dmg per hit than the others.
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Postby Kathryn » Tue May 08, 2007 2:46 pm

Aergis, what buff were you using to tank gruul, when i tanked him, the dps had to hold back or they'd have pulled aggro, the warrior could have o ut threath me, and thats with 200spell damage.

I did not have Windfury or Wrath of air. I did not have 2 T4 bonus. I don't have 1h spec. Maybe i just need to repsec in 1h spec and use T4 gloves over Maiden's till i get T4 shoulders.. I use my T4 helm atm.
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Postby Aergis » Tue May 08, 2007 2:47 pm

I think the original post is misleading. First the math is a little off. When the 2 hits are compared 7520 to 7200, using the method that was used, you aren't finding the percentage difference, you are finding what percent 7520 is of 7200. The answer is 104.4%, in other words the pally in that example took 4.4% more damage than the warrior. That is the part I find misleading.


Ah. You're right. To find the percent of the damage increased from one to the other I should have found the difference between the two, then divided that by the max. 320 / 7520 = 0.044.
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Postby Alixander » Tue May 08, 2007 2:49 pm

So in layman's terms, a good way of saying this is: The damage reduction from Defensive Stance and Righteous Fury is applied after the damage reduction from Armor?
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Postby Aergis » Tue May 08, 2007 2:53 pm

Aergis, what buff were you using to tank gruul, when i tanked him, the dps had to hold back or they'd have pulled aggro, the warrior could have o ut threath me, and thats with 200spell damage.


Adepts elixir, wizard oil, and power infusion on the pull, + AW. We also used grace of air instead of wrath of air for the dodge. Might switch that next time.
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Postby Aergis » Tue May 08, 2007 2:59 pm

So in layman's terms, a good way of saying this is: The damage reduction from Defensive Stance and Righteous Fury is applied after the damage reduction from Armor?


Since it's multiplicitave it doesn't matter if it comes before or after. My original thought was that since it is included on top of armor reduction it should not be a straight 4% decrease per hit. Fridmarr notes the miscalulation in my math, and says we shouldn't compare single hit damage to overall damage taken over time.

In layman's terms, it's not 4%, but it's not 1% either like I thought in the original post. From Fridmarr's simluation post, he shows it to be closer to 2.25% more damage taken by the paladin.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue May 08, 2007 3:20 pm

Aergis wrote:In layman's terms, it's not 4%, but it's not 1% either like I thought in the original post. From Fridmarr's simluation post, he shows it to be closer to 2.25% more damage taken by the paladin.


The simulator varies a bit, but more often then not, it seems to be in the upper 2's to low 3's. I've not averaged it out or anything. Basically, after the patch (in theory) we won't take a regular hit or a crushing blow, and that is where we make up some ground on a warrior who has identical stats.
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Postby hiro » Wed May 09, 2007 6:40 am

Except for the half second of lag after every Holy Shield, before we can re-apply it (because the cooldown stops us from refreshing it while we are still covered).
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