Ideal weapon speed

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Ideal weapon speed

Postby Glyhelm » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:18 pm

All other things being equal, what is the perfect weapon speed for tanking?

and why?

Is getting the best benefit out of Reckoning, or quickly stacking Seal of Vengeance, or getting Seal/Judgement of Light/Wisdom procs most important to you?
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Postby Dreamcrusher » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:32 pm

IMO, I believe the fastest weapon you can get is ideal. I don't think a weapon can be -too fast- for tanking.


With that said, I believe that the weapon speed is secondary to the spelldamage on it, as long as it's not -too- slow. I'm currently using a 2.2 speed weapon and it's doing fine, but I would really like something a bit faster, and I would need a -huge- spelldmg upgrade to move to anything slower.


However, my end-game tanking experience (as a paladin) is non-existent. Just my 2 copper.
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Postby Higan » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:26 am

I've found 2.0 speed to be ideal, I can use all my reckoning charges maximizing my agro output via SoR.
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Postby Dorven » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:19 pm

The answer is "that depends"

Reckoning
Reckoning is kind of counterintutive. Basically, though, weapon speed doesn't change the average benefit you get from a Reckoning proc in terms of extra seconds of damage.

Consider a 3 second weapon. If you swing your weapon at time t:

If reckoning procs between t + 0.0 and t + 2.0, you get three extra swings
- AKA 9 seconds of extra weapon damage
- AKA weapon DPS x 9.0 extra daamge

If reckoning procs between t+2.0 and t+3.0, you get two extra swings
- AKA 6 seconds of extra weapon damage
- AKA weapon DPS x 6.0 extra daamge

So average extra damage = (2/3 x 9.0 + 1/3 x 6.0) x your DPS
= 8.0 x your DPS

If you do the same calculations for any weapon 2.0 seconds or greater, it's the same. It's only when you dip below 2.0 seconds that your average gain drops below 8 x your DPS. Though I suppose there's a very slight advantage to the 2.0 speed, as it always gives 8 x DPS, as opposed to sometimes getting more or sometimes less.

A 1.8 speed weapon works out to give you 4x 1.8 = 7.2 seconds of extra DPS, consistantly. That means your Reckoning procs are only 90% as effective.

Seal of Light / Seal of Wisdom
Now these aren't used in a lot of tanking encounters, but sometimes they're handy on trash, or in a situation where mana is constrained. SoL and SoW have a straight chance to proc per hit. So the quicker your weapon, the better.

Overall
Given just these considerations, I'd say that since maximizing Reckoning output is more important than SoL/SoW, 2.0 is the ideal speed. But you still have to look at the weapon itself. Right now, a Greatsword of Horrid Dreams or a Continuum Blade , despite their 1.80 speed.
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Postby Endure » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:33 pm

I don't look at reckoning. It's random, so working to plan around it is futile. Focus on the stats, what the weapon brings. If you happen to get reckoning, so be it.

That being said, I like faster weapons simply because I get more attacks off for judgments and also can switch from one mob to the next mob with less 'wait time' between swings.
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Postby Kathryn » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:36 pm

Depends... If i'm tanking with SoR i really like my 1.9 continuum blade... If i'm tanking with SoB+JoL.. I really love the fastest i can get.. wich atm is the Latro's shifting sword (1.4 speed)
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Postby Glyhelm » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:41 pm

Endure wrote:I don't look at reckoning. It's random, so working to plan around it is futile. Focus on the stats, what the weapon brings. If you happen to get reckoning, so be it.

That being said, I like faster weapons simply because I get more attacks off for judgments and also can switch from one mob to the next mob with less 'wait time' between swings.


It's random, but it has a statistical effect. If your average fight lasted, say 5 seconds, then you could ignore it. But statistically it will give you a really significant advantage in even fights as short as one minute. You shouldn't ignore it simply because you don't know EXACTLY how large that advantage will be.
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Postby Lore » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:52 pm

I don't really know how SoV works, and haven't played with SoB much, but as far as SoR goes the difference is fairly negligible. Like Dorven said, from 2.0 speed and up there really isn't a difference. When you dip below 2.0 speed you're not quite getting as much effectiveness out of it, but there's also the chance that Reckoning could proc again before you get a chance to use all the swings, in which case a faster weapon would be more effective.

Ultimately the difference is so slight that the benefits from the stats on the weapon would almost certainly outweigh any benefit you could get from the weapon speed. And if I was faced with choosing between two weapons that were completely identical except for the speed... I'd probably just pick whichever one looked prettier.
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Postby Livyan » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:05 pm

Dorven wrote:*Snip*

A 1.8 speed weapon works out to give you 4x 1.8 = 7.2 seconds of extra DPS, consistantly. That means your Reckoning procs are only 90% as effective.

*Snip*


A word of warning, I am quite possibly the worst mathematician (ooh, tired! Did I spell that right?) the world has ever seen, and as much as I love TheoryCrafting, I am horrible at it!
I am also new to this forum, so please don't flame my greenhorn behind!

Anyhow; this reasoning (faster than 2.0 aspd gives less Reckoning efficiency), I've seen over and over again.
But what I do not understand is why?
Does people run into their calculations that Reckoning can refresh during the time it is active, where you have (in the example of the 1.8 aspd) a window of 0.8s between all charges used and buff duration running out?

This may just be the ramblings of a very tired greenhorn, but please educate me! :)

(This post is seriously lacking more of my reasoning behind my questioning, I know, but I'm very tired!)
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Postby Lore » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:22 pm

It can, but it's adding more randomness to calculations that are already pretty random. At 1.8 speed, you'll have 9 seconds to get a second Reckoning proc. Average boss attack speed seems to be around 3 seconds, so we're looking at 3 swings at 10% chance each, even if you say none of them were miss/dodge/parry that's only a 30% chance total.
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Postby Selye » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:40 pm

Just to play devil's advocate, it's still only 10% chance to proc per hit. No matter how many times you get hit, each hit doesn't have any effect on the next hit's chance to proc Reckoning.

Now, to say that the probability at least one would proc of three is 8.1% is roughly correct (100 * 90% * 90% * 10%, the 90s being the chance that two hits failed to proc, and the 10 being one hit proccing. Please correct me if this is wrong.) This is also discounting the avoidance factor, of course. If you had a 40% avoidance already, it's more like 60 * 90% * 90% * 10%, or 4.86%.

Again, please correct me if this is wrong, as it's been a long time since I took statistics.
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Postby Lore » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:40 am

Yeah that math made no sense to me :P
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Postby Arcand » Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:38 pm

Selye wrote:Now, to say that the probability at least one would proc of three is 8.1% is roughly correct (100 * 90% * 90% * 10%, the 90s being the chance that two hits failed to proc, and the 10 being one hit proccing. Please correct me if this is wrong.)


I think you're out by a factor of three, because firsthitprocs, secondhitprocs and thirdhitprocs are distinct events and have to be counted separately.

The general formula for p procs on h hits would be

hCp (0.1)^p(0.9)^(h-p)

so in this case you'd want

3C1 (0.1) (0.9)^2 = 3 x 0.1 x 0.81 = 24.3% chance.
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Postby Selye » Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:54 pm

Ahh, right. Yeah, I figured I was off a little bit. My bad. I think what I was doing was calculating the probability that only the third hit would proc, and not the first or second. Whoops.

Though reading it, did you mean h^p, or h*p? Cause you wrote it as an exponent first, but evaluated it with multiplication.
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Postby kurros » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:13 am

The ideal paladin tank weapon doesn't exist, but IMO something like a king's defender with it's base dps traded for spell damage, such as:


Sword of the Holy
Mainhand Sword
60-100 damage Speed 2.0
(40 dps)
140 armor
24 stamina
5 intellect
durability 105/105
requires level 70
equip: increases dodge rating by 10
equip: increases damage and healing by 150
equip: increases spell hit rating by 10
equip: increases hit rating by 10
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