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Righteous Fury threat generation bugged - confirmed

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Serious threat issues

Postby fiorina » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:33 pm

Katamai wrote:Last few weeks i noticed my threat has been going down very fast and i just can't figure out what's going on.

In my MT gear i have 350 SD, in trash gear 428 and it can go up to 568 in my SD gear all unbuffed.... ommited


428 unbuffed, it's +101 WoA, +40 oil and +23 food = 591SD
This should be fine for all trash ingame. What mobs you are running 650TPS on? I see JotC, stacking SoV... looks like epic battle for me, not a trash mob. Should be AS, HS, Conc+JoR, SoR and taunt when needed. It should be close to 900TPS with 600SD.

Heroic Mecha/Bot. Again, what mobs? If robot, well, they have knockbacks, aggro is rather a problem sometimes. For normal mobs, just HS, consecrate, JoR... they should be dead. Because if they overaggro 650TPS, they must be doing close to 1000DPS... Do they have BoS? Just AoE the instance, check Invisusira's video.

Try to elaborate which exact boss/trash mob you have problem. Your DPS could be overgeared compared to you, could be some gimmick fight or similar. Your warriors could be better geared and more experienced on trash, nothing bad they will overaggro you.
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Postby Palafix » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:31 pm

I've actually noticed this exact same thing. Despite getting better threat gear, in the past few weeks my threat has only seemed to go down, and I've talked to a few people already about it. I'm quite perplexed as well, as to how my threat could go down in a completely general sense. It seems that I now need Wrath of Air, or sanctity aura that to reach tps levels that previously I was able to obtain without them. It's already happened multiple times where, despite having over 500 spell damage for a fight, I couldn't even break a measly 1k tps with Avenging wrath and the Icon of the Silver crescent use effect.

I've done heroic SP about 5 times this week, and each time I do the first boss, normally I would expect to peak at least at 1300 tps, if not peaking up to 1500 tps, before going back down to 900-1000 sustained tps, but with my max threat gear and wrath of air, I'm struggling to keep above 600 - 700tps and haven't yet broken 1k tps on that fight (of the last 5 or 6 runs I've done). It's been happening way too often and consistently for it to be something like unlucky resists.

To me, it seems like a general across the board reduction in threat, regardless of what buffs I have. I haven't changed my threat rotation at all, and I'm using more spell damage gear than I was before. It simply perplexes me as to how I could drop so much in terms of threat generation in such a general sense. I have no explanation for it.
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Postby Kayoto » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:19 am

Omen sucks and is buggy as all hell. Unless your DPS are actually pulling aggro off you, don't trust it.
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Postby guillex » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:26 am

Kayoto wrote:Omen sucks and is buggy as all hell. Unless your DPS are actually pulling aggro off you, don't trust it.


AFAIK Omen's been fix't as of the last update or so.
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Postby Palafix » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:29 am

Kayoto wrote:Omen sucks and is buggy as all hell. Unless your DPS are actually pulling aggro off you, don't trust it.


That's just the thing. I was doing the Nethermancer fight in h. mech, and it showed me as generating a really nice amount of threat consistently, but without a dragon's breath or a knockback, while I was generating 1200 tps, she switched off of me to an ele shammy who was only generating about 1k tps and who was a good 20k behind in threat, according to ktm. Even Intuition told me I was fine on threat. But without doing anything, she went straight after the shaman. After I taunted it, I just couldn't get it back. Every time I taunted, it'd just go straight for the shaman again, and eventually the shaman just ended up tanking her.
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Postby jere » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:52 pm

Palafix wrote:
Kayoto wrote:Omen sucks and is buggy as all hell. Unless your DPS are actually pulling aggro off you, don't trust it.


That's just the thing. I was doing the Nethermancer fight in h. mech, and it showed me as generating a really nice amount of threat consistently, but without a dragon's breath or a knockback, while I was generating 1200 tps, she switched off of me to an ele shammy who was only generating about 1k tps and who was a good 20k behind in threat, according to ktm. Even Intuition told me I was fine on threat. But without doing anything, she went straight after the shaman. After I taunted it, I just couldn't get it back. Every time I taunted, it'd just go straight for the shaman again, and eventually the shaman just ended up tanking her.


She has an aggro dump. If you taunted her and she went back to the shaman, then I would let them know to hold dps after she dumps aggro until you have her.
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Postby elson » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:59 am

My threat has gone down somewhat recently as well but thats due to gear changes :P

However even in my old threat gear omen does not seem to be giving me the numbers it used to, so really not sure if they changed something with that meter or not. Holding threat is still not an issue for me atm in most situations so I very much doubt it was a change to any paladin abilities.
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Postby Palafix » Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:57 am

In ZA today, I was really noticed a real threat issue on the bosses. For Zul'jin with 350 spell damage during phases one and 2, I only had a sustained tps of 600, which seems rather low to me. My threat on that fight fluctuated anywhere between 900 and 500 tps, but it seemed to be around 600-650 most often. This was during phase 1 and 2, using the same standard threat rotation that I've always used.

I was really threat capping some of the dps, and I've never noticed a problem like that on that scale before. Granted I only had 350 spell damage (wasn't using any buffs besides wizard oil) and was in max stam gear, my threat just seemed horrible.

On Malacrass, I was averaging only about 700 tps with 500 spell damage, buffed, while he was attacking me.

This was the first time I had done ZA, and I was wondering if the problem itself was that this was the first time, besides VR, where I was tanking a boss that wasn't a demon, where consistent tps mattered (ignoring Leo and Hydross). I thought that partial and total spell resists were what were causing the lower than expected threat.

I didn't have a WWS of the ZA run, which would be a good idea to look at next time I do ZA to see what's up, but I was looking at a WWS on a previous VR that I did


On VR himself, the % mitigated, which I think is the total amount partially resisted / the total amount of damage done, correct me if I'm wrong was about

5.1% from consecration

5.4% from seal of righteousness


That meant that, compared to no partial resists, I was missing out on roughly the same % from damage from those 2 spells, a little more in actuality. I calculated it through, and it was only a 3% loss in threat over the total fight, which seems trivial.

Of the total resists from JoR, it was 10%
Even comparing that to the normal 5% resist rate vs. a level 70,
I was only missing out on about 5.8% total threat, which again, really doesn't explain the difference between hundreds of tps that I was "losing" on the bosses in ZA.

It just seemed to me that my threat was unnaturally low, and I don't know how to explain it. Maybe I'm underestimating the scalability of spell damage, but it just seems that before, I was able to put out higher tps values while carrying less spell dmg raid buffed, in both heroics and in 10 mans.


Maybe It's my lack of Reckoning that explains my latest threat problems, but I still have noticed threat problems over the last month or so, even when I've had reckoning.
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Postby elsydeon » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:57 am

this seems a bit noobish, but are you sure RF is up?

its easy to forget and get lost in a sea of buffs and sometimes it may get lost (dueled a lock once and his dog ate all my buffs)
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Postby Andox » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:27 am

Strange, in my current gear I have 214 unbuffed. Some minutes ago when I did Heroic SlavePens and tanked the big Rokmar dude (I think that was the name) I got around 1k - 1.2k TPS the whole fight. I pulled with AW > Avenger> Judge Crusader > Seal of Vengeace. Then I just kept judging the 5 stack SoV whole fight.
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Postby Conneur » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 am

elsydeon wrote:this seems a bit noobish, but are you sure RF is up?

its easy to forget and get lost in a sea of buffs and sometimes it may get lost (dueled a lock once and his dog ate all my buffs)


I've got a similar incident (which I was going to post this morning in it's own thread till i found this one) with the Prince in Kara just last night.

Whenever I do a round of blessings, I refresh my Righteous Fury, and always before bosses I throw a new RF on as a just incase.

Yet last night on the Prince, with a buffed 395 spell damage, i was only pushing out an average of 350-600 tps.

In all the weeks/months I've been tanking Prince, this was just absurdly low. I've been noticing it happening since the patch hit, every now and then i'll be in a fight and check my tps just to find myself almost threat capping my melee. I'll look over my buffs, double check RF is up, and keep going.

But last night... I lost the friggin' aggro on Prince. First time ever. RF up, double checked, 395 spell damage.. nearly had a heart attack.

So, i'm taking today to play with omen and RF. in fights that i start seeing low threat, i'm gonna completely take off RF and rebuff it to see if it's a bug in the game not applying RF's abilities 100% of the time, or losing the buff even though the icon and timer is still up.

EDIT: forgot to add my rotation. pull with AS, HS is already up, JoR, SoR, Cons(max), JotC, SoR.

At the AS part of that, I hit up to 1200 tps (first pull, no other aggro hitting, so it was high). That lowered down to 650 tps, then to my dismay all the way down to about 389 or so tps. I hit AW and it bumped to a whopping 412 tps.
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Postby Palafix » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:50 am

I don't have specific numbers to back it up, but the problem is, at least the way it seems to me, is a general decrease in my threat output over the last month or so. I can't find any other way to say it. Regardless of buffs, gear and mob, my threat has more than consistently fallen short of expectations, both burst and sustained.

Where once I could sustain at least 800 tps with over 350 spell damage, now I'm struggling to keep above 600, with little else changing. It just seems to me that I need more spell damage to reach tps levels that I was able to obtain previously with much less spell damage.


I'm as baffled as the OP, which is why I'm posting. If it was something simple , I probably would have figured it out and fixed it already, instead of asking on the forums. I truly have no explanation for this perceived drop in general threat output however, so I was happy to see that someone else was having this problem, and over the same time span.


Maybe I can give some more elaboration..

I use ktm version 20.4. I will try using omen or something, to see if it's not even a problem with me, but with the threat meter, but I doubt it.

I have noticed aggro problems, across all levels of spell damage, namely reaching tps levels much lower than I expected, and my expectations come from previous experience of doing the same encounters with similar or in many cases less spell damage. I carry anywhere between 214 at the very lowest, and 550 at the very highest spell damage, usually around 450 in normal gear.

From time to time my threat meets and exceeds expectations, such as a few days ago in mech, I got to 1800 peak tps on the demon mini boss. This was only burst threat however, and I'm much more interested in sustained threat.

My threat usually fluctuates several hundred tps over the course of a fight, something I usually attribute to resists/high or low amount of blocks. My threat does at times get up to 800/900 tps while using as low as 300 spell dmg, but it never stays there.


I've had this problem, or at least noticed it, over the last month or so, despite having started to run instances with more spell damage.

I recently lost reckoning, however I noticed this threat problem even before that. Otherwise I have used, and still use, the standard 0/49/12 build, having taken all the threat-oriented talents.



The instances that I've run and noticed the problem include ZA and pretty much every heroic.

Edit: I checked KTM and Omen, the latest versions of each, over and over again, and they both seem to be working perfectly, agreeing 100% with the combat logs.
That means that there is an actual problem with my threat, and It has little to do with the fact that I was fighting bosses as opposed to level 70 mobs.

I suppose I should take a wws of my next ZA run.
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Postby corc » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:49 pm

I'm not sure RF is the problem even, there have been a few times when I forgot to use RF but still held aggro like a crazy mofo (not just capping the dps, i was well above them).

I always throw down a cons, it seems to add a nice steady amount of TPS. If you aren't using everything you've got, try adding some more to the cast sequence and see if you still have problems.
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Postby Mithos » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:17 pm

Not noticed my threat change since the patch, but tbh I am rather trigger happy, I will happily blag 60 mage water if we don't have a mage and spam everything whilst pulling 2 groups, using SoV on mobs that die in less than 10 seconds. Usually get at least 1000, I tend to watch the mobs swing timer and throw in frizbees and HoW's too.

I tend to run heroics with 505 unbuffed SD, 17% dodge/parry, 25% block, 517 def ish (these are vs level 73, pulled form tank points combat table), and 600 block value. We always impose a no CC rule unless it's absolutely neccessary, just aoe the crap out of the places :p.

One thing you must remember is Spiritual Attunment, if you are getting better tank gear you are (hopefully) getting less incoming damage and thus getting less mana returned, its quite a large amount of threat. It's also part of your mentality - if you are getting less mana returned, you are going to run low on mana quicker and you naturally tend to stop casting as much so you don't run out completely.

If you are watching your mana bar and observe your mana use vs regen, if you're using more than you are getting given from SA, whilst your active thinking procss is concentrated on awareness and threat cycle, your passive thinking is on slowing down so you level your mana out, keeping enough to survive (HS/taunt if applicable) whilst putting out a fair bit less threat. A suggestion maybe is to use more mana gear, or if you are avoidaince heavy, get some block value and stack some stamina see how that works. I don't know why so many people hate intellect, I freak out if I have less than 7000 max mana in a heroic, and about 6000/6500 for a raid depending, unless I'm MTing.

Bear the SA thing in mind, mana regen is a lot of threat and I think a lot of people forget it, I had to remind everyone in guild when a mage used a mana gem on Leo just as he finished WWing and got ganked whilst frizbee was flying (he was very close to the boss). Hell I even wait and use mana pots to sometimes specifically aggro spawning adds when it's not a good idea/practical for me to move far. I can't really see another reason for the listed problems and a lot of people with problems who are posting mention "over the last few weeks" or "over the last month".
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Postby Vahba » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:39 pm

Reduce your dodge rating, replace with block rating. On pulls don't allow stuns early, or even pw:s up if you want to go crazy. Don't go in over geared defensively for the fight, trust (and abuse :P) your healers, so you can max rank without ooming too much.
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