Patch 6.2

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Patch 6.2

Postby Minraduk » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:56 am

Hey guys, now that Theck is no around and we miss good theorycrafters, what do you think about next patch?
How will paladin tanks do next patch compared to other tanks? How is the 2pc and 4pc bonus and how good is the trinket that we get?
I can see that almost all tank classes get a buff or have a really strong set bonuses and wanted to know where does it put us as tankadins?
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Razeoflight » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:21 pm

Yea good question man where is theck!?! i hope hes ok :)

in any case as the set bonuses are concerned i think the two set is alright and the 4 set i do like
the tier gear in general is pretty well itemized for us if u ask me so why not get it
the two set gives an absorb of 1.5% of total HP whenever u use avengers shield for 10 seconds that u can just keep refreshing when off tanking i know u can stack this absorb effect as well i wonder how high tho
the four set will give our avengers shield a 50% chance to reset its cooldown so that will end up increase our dmg and healing by a lot specially when aoe tanking

as far as our offpiece is concerned i think it will probably be there legs and the tier legs give you mastery/multistrike with the stat allocation towards multistrike and there is a haste/mastery alternative off an early boss

when we talk about trinkets i donno man my first impression of the Libram of Vindication is a bit underwhelming but i would love to get my hands on it and test it out
just get the feeling its gonna do absolutely nothing for big parts of many fights and would be a waste of a slot
will probably end up running Anzu's Cursed Plume baseline on every fight and thats probably going to be paired with Tyrant's Decree for most encounters

they dident really touch prot pallys this tier and they left us in a pretty good place in siege if u ask me with the empowered seals buff and resolving the haste issue we had early warlords
as always it just remains a solid tank spec all round with a good toolkit of abilities
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Schroom » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:38 am

with same skill levels protection paladins seem to be least favorite. there is a huge discussion about this on mmo champ.

note that if you aren't playing mythic progression it does not matter and everything is okay, just play the class you like.

also a "tank A is better then tank B" always considers 2 tanks with the same perfect skill level. on order to be relevant.

I'm on 11/13 Heroic now and haven't encountered any problems yet. my overall DPS is pretty low tho compared to other tanks. where as using HA/Sera(or EmpS)/on use trinkets for AoE burst still let's me keep up.

in short our DPS is not as bad as it was in SoO, far from it, but other tanks have an advantage on us.

warriors are pretty close.



concerning Theck. here is the last I've read of him on MMO-Champion:

I can't make Cadenza's raid times anymore, which is why I'm taking a break from wow. I was too busy to do much but raid beforehand anyway, so once you remove raiding there didn't seem to be much point. As of right now, I don't know when (or if) I'll be returning to the game. I'll probably wait to sort that out until this summer, when I should have a little more free time.

Last few tidbits that I can think of that may be relevant to the current conversation: The legendary ring procs should be coded such that the DPS ring just won't work on a tank. This is mostly my fault, because I raised the specter of "what if both tanks wear the DPS ring to exaggerate the effect on a DPS player during cooldowns." Average damage shouldn't be any higher (at least, in the last version I saw), but you could do some cheesy things with cooldowns.

I don't know if you've seen the new trinket design yet, so I'll keep my mouth shut on that other than to say that the first version was incredibly weak. After a few rounds of hypothetical buffs, it was on par with the other trinkets - better in some cases, worse in others. If you haven't seen the new trinkets, then pretend those last few sentences don't exist and maybe we can talk about it more this summer, if I return.

That's probably the last you'll hear from me for another month or so.


http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1631447-Prot-WoD-Discussion?p=33312559&viewfull=1#post33312559
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Razeoflight » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:06 am

ah ic thnx for the quick reply schroom

heres to hoping that he sorts his stuff out and goes back to being the prot pally theorycrafting god that he is
losing theck would be a huge loss to the tankadin community
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Beelgers » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:44 am

Schroom wrote:with same skill levels protection paladins seem to be least favorite. there is a huge discussion about this on mmo champ.


I've also been looking around a lot for information and it seems pretty lacking compared to the past. With Theck out, EJ forums quiet, and this forum being fairly quiet I'm kind of out of my usual resources. Are the paladin forums on MMOC better than they have been in the past? The advice that seemed to echo in those forums in MOP was kind of... off to put it nicely with a lot of the usual hostility I've enjoyed not seeing on other sites.

Am I overlooking some other good sources?
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Torquemada » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:19 am

The MMOC forums are ok, if you can get past the grumbling and bitterness. A lot of them also tend to flock behind the senior tanks on the forums, and if someone like Slootbag or Treckie is seen saying something on a stream that doesn't concur they get blasted. So use with caution, YMMV.

Based on 6.2 changes the devs are still currently primarily focused on tank survivability rather than DPS contribution, which is why we continue to lag behind with Warriors. Taking gear/talents that address this seem to gimp our survivability while Guardians and Brewmasters don't have to make the same kinds of choices and still pull ahead. As such, a lot of Paladins on the MMOC forums seem to have switched to Monk, Guardian, and some even to DK. The latest video I saw that interviewed Ion Hazzikostas mentioned they're keeping an eye on Prot Paladins, but his comments seem to confirm my suspicions that they're focused on survivability.

I will note that I can routinely pull aggro off the pull from my Guardian tank if I'm not careful (Bosses and trash), even using Holy Shield, and he still usually beats me on DPS, so threat isn't an issue.

I'm at 8/13N 6/13H presently, and aim to use Anzu's and Warlord's Unseeing Eye as trinkets. I'm not sure how trinket drops are handled from Archimonde- are they similar to tier tokens? If so, I'll probably be passing until our Warlocks and such get theirs.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Beelgers » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:29 am

Thanks for the input. Wish there were more sources, but like you say, flocking away from prot paladin might be part of the issue as to why its hard to find good resources these days.

"lot of them also tend to flock behind the senior tanks on the forums"
This is what I was subtly referring to as the "echo" there. Sometimes the top guys in the forum will say something that I'm pretty sure is wrong, but if anyone tries to dispute it everyone rudely goes after them lol... This is why I usually question the validity of advice there though. Guess I'll have to make some effort to figure it out for myself! :D

Thanks for the info about prot being looked at. I had not heard that. I'm not planning on swapping to an alt. Things feel okay to me when on my paladin. I'm far from a top 20 guild though, so I do have the option to just play what I like the most.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Torquemada » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:22 am

I can summarize about 298 pages of the MMOC Prot Paladin thread as it relates to the situation right now. Here goes:

Sera is rather gimped at 100 because the 750 to secondary stats doesn't compete at the HFC level. There are a few fights where it might be advantageous but not extremely so. A lot of the MMOC posters are against EmpS (They were against it before as well, but I digress) because there is so much magic damage and dots that HS can help with. Plus depending on your gear a Paladin could get really close to the haste cap without EmpS, making HS the default talent. Most of them are running HA/HS or DP/HS, and some of the simcrafters are toying with heavy mastery builds (Only going to 1719 haste or whatever the haste cap is with EmpS and stacking mastery) since mastery = bigger blocking with SotR and block. I don't have access to MMOC at work but I remember one of them saying that LoV is worth a ton of mastery, but potentially to make it work the other tank would have to just swap for debuffs and swap back to make sure you make full effective use of it. A lot of them are keen on trying to keep 2 pc T17/2 pc T18 as they think it might work better.

It's also been suggested you try getting the crafted (Blacksmithing) belt, boots, and possibly pants upgraded as far as possible, since the only good belt for us is a trash drop (And is BiS for Frost DW), properly itemized boots drop from Archimonde, and pants are meh. Plus you'll almost certainly want helm, shoulders, and/or gloves towards tier items, probably with chest making 4 if you decide to go with 4 pc.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Torquemada » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:34 pm

From MMOC

Solaire wrote:So, about that haste-heavy BiS list:

Prot BiS T18; Haste-focused

Head: Helm of the Ceaseless Vigil
Neck: World Ender's Gorget
Shoulders: Shoulderplates of the Ceaseless Vigil
Cape: Void Lord's Wizened Cloak
Chest: Cuirass of the Ceaseless Vigil 4pc / Battleplate of Guiding Light 2pc/2pc
Wrist: Breach-Scarred Wristplates
Hands: Gauntlets of the Ceaseless Vigil 4pc / Gauntlets of Guiding Light 2pc/2pc
Belt: Girdle of Demonic Wrath
Legs: Legguards of Grevious Consonances
Boots: Treads of the Defiler
Ring: Sanctus, Sigil of the Unbroken
Ring: Mannoroth's Calcified Eye
Trinket: Anzu's Cursed Plume (MANDATORY, EVERY BOSS)
Trinket: Libram of Vindication OR Warlord's Unseeing Eye OR Imbued Stone Sigil depending on encounter. Libram on most until its almost inevitable nerf, WUE on Velhari and likely Zakuun. Stone Sigil for comfort, basically.
Weapon: Felstricken Shatari Crystalsword OR Fiendsbreath Warmace (take Crystalsword before Warmace since iLvl and weapon damage is more important for DPS than it is for you)
Shield: Soulwarped Tower Shield, but an argument can be made for Smoldercore Bulwark - a warforged one is likely BiS unless you get a warforged FDoA.

On the note of Libram of Vindication, I thought'd I'd write a few words on why the trinket is so unbelievably good in the right situations (which is a lot of situations, really), and also a few words on which fights it should generally be avoided completely on:

So, what makes Libram of Vindication good? Well, other than the fact that the damage portion of the trinket is currently absurdly overtuned, which makes it a 10-15k single-target DPS increase on any boss where it procs every time it comes off ICD, in practice it's essentially 2-3x as much effective health as a stamina trinket when you really need it.

Take Mythic Iron Reaver - where can you possibly die on Iron Reaver? No, not to Artillery - that tickles even on Mythic. The situation in which you're actually likely to die is the two melee hits you take immediately after coming back from soaking an Artillery. You're probably on 70-75% HP after this with unglyphed DP, and Iron Reaver's next two melee hits can be expected to hit you for 3-400k total at the very least. Now, you can either wear two stamina trinkets like I did on our first pulls, which just barely gives you enough HP to survive said melee hits but means you're instantly dead to the third if your healers are slow...

Or you can wear Libram of Vindication, which is GUARANTEED to proc to those melee hits (because nothing else is going to proc them and it'll have time to come off ICD while you're out with Artillery even if something does) and is thus effectively worth 2 stamina trinkets on its own even if the proc doesn't Crit or Multi. So long as you're a good enough player in a good enough guild that you can essentially be sure that LoV will only proc in threatening burst situations, it's worth an absolutely massive amount of effective health on top of contributing more DPS than any other trinket this tier.

The issue with the trinket, however, is either fights where the heal is ineffective when you need it most (Tyrant Velhari), or fights where the burst windows simply occur more often than the trinket can be expected to proc (Fel Lord) - on these fights you absolutely want either Imbued Stone Sigil or Warlord's Unseeing Eye if you have them available, because LoV is downright outclassed for survival purposes by those trinkets on those fights.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Schroom » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:29 am

Torquemada wrote:A lot of the MMOC posters are against EmpS (They were against it before as well, but I digress) because there is so much magic damage and dots that HS can help with. Plus depending on your gear a Paladin could get really close to the haste cap without EmpS, making HS the default talent. Most of them are running HA/HS or DP/HS,


I can't really agree to that. Most Bosses are easily survivable, at least on heroic (can't speak for mythic yet, I'm on 12/13 Heroic tho).

HS is often simply not needed and a huge DPS loss.

Most Bosses I run with EmpS+DP or EmpS+HA

I used HS+DP+SoI the first week on council, as I am tanking the priestess. But already on the second week for the re-kill i went back to EmpS+DP as HS is just not needed here.

I use HS+DP on Gorefiend, as there is a lot of damage and the Add hits like a truck. also my Bossuptime during the Soulfeast is pretty low as I'm soaking souls mostly, so Tank DPS is not really that important here.
might probably chance on mythic where you want to maximize raidDPS and have hunters soak the souls.

I also play HS+DP on velhari, just to push for the lowest possible TMI, as phase 2 is pretty tough. and I don't have WUE yet.

xhul'horac I played with HS+HA. HS rocks against the magic damage here as you can get globaled if you are unlucky with AE explosions and fel/voidsstrikes happening at the same time.

Torquemada wrote:and some of the simcrafters are toying with heavy mastery builds (Only going to 1719 haste or whatever the haste cap is with EmpS and stacking mastery) since mastery = bigger blocking with SotR and block.


I agree, this is exactly what I do.

Torquemada wrote: A lot of them are keen on trying to keep 2 pc T17/2 pc T18 as they think it might work better.


I am thinking about this as well, tho the T17 pieces need to be mythic at the least. if your content is heroic or above. in order not to lose to much ilvl.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby golfinguy » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:52 am

Schroom wrote:I can't really agree to that. Most Bosses are easily survivable, at least on heroic (can't speak for mythic yet, I'm on 12/13 Heroic tho).


Having read most of the MMO thread over the months, you'll find no argument with that. No one on there thinks Heroic is a problem for prot and any talent combo. Its Mythic/progression that leads to the HS recommendation.

And since I don't raid Mythic either (not yet anyway), I can run whatever I want :P
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Torquemada » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:47 am

Agreed. I was just passing along their thoughtspeak. I've personally been running EmpS on most things with HS on our Gorefiend attempts.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Schroom » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:04 am


Avenger’s Shield damage increased by 30%.
Bastion of Glory now increases the healing received from Word of Glory by 8% per stack (up from 6%). Additionally, Mastery: Divine Bulwark now adds 8% to Bastion of Glory (up from 6%).
Tier-18 2-piece set bonus for Protection Paladins now grants an absorb effect equal to 5% of maximum health (up from 1.5%).
Tier-18 4-piece set bonus for Protection Paladins now triggers Grand Crusader.


I must say, that's freakin' awesome ^.^
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby papst24 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:59 am

Schroom wrote:

Avenger’s Shield damage increased by 30%.
Bastion of Glory now increases the healing received from Word of Glory by 8% per stack (up from 6%). Additionally, Mastery: Divine Bulwark now adds 8% to Bastion of Glory (up from 6%).
Tier-18 2-piece set bonus for Protection Paladins now grants an absorb effect equal to 5% of maximum health (up from 1.5%).
Tier-18 4-piece set bonus for Protection Paladins now triggers Grand Crusader.


I must say, that's freakin' awesome ^.^



That´s not enough - we are still too weak. AS good push, but think we need a push for mastery - need more block value and black chance.

Tier-18 2-piece is ok, could now work better.
Tier-18 4-piece what should i say? will stay with 2-piece 17 and 2-piece 18.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Torquemada » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:40 am

This does the following:

1. Avenger's Shield becomes top priority, and procs all the damn time.
2. Significant DPS boost, to AOE as well as single target.
3. AS gives you a ~85k shield every time you use is, which should be all the time.

So, increase survivability/self-sustain, and increased DPS. What exactly were you thinking we needed again? That said, none of this is live yet.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Mordred » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:53 am

With this change, will EF be more competitive with SS now?
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Schroom » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:26 am

why would it, the buff has nothing to do with EF. as long as the HoT does not scale with BoG and Resolve it's crap.

Torquemada explains pretty neat how it looks.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Mordred » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:21 am

Thanks, for some reason I thought the HoT was effected by the increase from BOG.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Avalerion » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:10 am

Tier-18 2-piece set bonus for Protection Paladins' Avenger's Reprieve effect no longer stacks and will refresh the duration of the effect instead.

This makes me feel the 4-set isn't as necessary if off-tier pieces have better stats. Though I admit, I am confused by what they mean "trigger" Grand Crusader...does this make AS have no CD and always generates HP....it's just on all the time?
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby xstratax » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:48 pm

It means that instead of just refreshing the CD on AS it instead Procs GC, so yeah, it generates HP when the 4pc Procs
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Schroom » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:45 am

if it would have stacked with the buff it would have been OP as fuck.

check my twitter conversation with Celestalon from yesterday:

https://twitter.com/therealschroom/status/623742467628769281
@WarcraftDevs Protpally 2p no longer stacks, intended?
@therealschroom @WarcraftDevs Yes, that was a bug, was fixed today. Not sure if it made it in time for today's hotfix notes.
@therealschroom @WarcraftDevs Ah, it did. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/198...y-21-7-21-2015
@therealschroom @WarcraftDevs We have the amount on some absorbs stack, but buff stacks on an absorb doesn't make sense. Just a bug.

Tier-18 2-piece set bonus for Protection Paladins' Avenger's Reprieve effect no longer stacks and will refresh the duration of the effect instead.


the 2 piece is still AMAZING. I saw logs where the 2piece absorbed up to 30% more damage than SS.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Honor » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:16 am

Schroom wrote:if it would have stacked with the buff it would have been OP as fuck.

check my twitter conversation with Celestalon from yesterday:

https://twitter.com/therealschroom/status/623742467628769281
@WarcraftDevs Protpally 2p no longer stacks, intended?
@therealschroom @WarcraftDevs Yes, that was a bug, was fixed today. Not sure if it made it in time for today's hotfix notes.
@therealschroom @WarcraftDevs Ah, it did. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/198...y-21-7-21-2015
@therealschroom @WarcraftDevs We have the amount on some absorbs stack, but buff stacks on an absorb doesn't make sense. Just a bug.

Tier-18 2-piece set bonus for Protection Paladins' Avenger's Reprieve effect no longer stacks and will refresh the duration of the effect instead.


the 2 piece is still AMAZING. I saw logs where the 2piece absorbed up to 30% more damage than SS.


With the increase to 5% it looking pretty good now. Especially with the 4pc your going to be dumping AS quite often. I'm wondering if its worth dropping in a stam trinket such as tyrants with that 1500+ stam your going to get a larger absorb, or if haste is still just as important.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Schroom » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:19 am

haste.

the gain from stam is pretty weak. most of the absorb comes from resolve anyway.

in myhic I'd say almost every boss you want to use LoV and ACP. except for Velhari and when you notice Bosses where LoV doesn't procc enough (apparently Zakuun is a candidate here.) in which cases you replace LoV with WuE.

WuE is the more defensive choice, while LoV does a huge amount of DPS if it proccs enough.

for normal / heroic it depends on you're skill/gear and Raidteam capabilites. if LoV proccs a lot because on of those 3 things is bad than go for it, if you want to switch defense for a big offense gain. if not stay with WuE.

stam trinkets aren't needed if you healers are doing their job and you do yours.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby theckhd » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:15 am

Razeoflight wrote:Yea good question man where is theck!?! i hope hes ok :)


I'm okay, but I had to take a break from WoW in march, and haven't returned. I was putting in almost 40 hours a week between raiding, playing, blogging, theorycrafting/coding, etc., all in addition to my actual job. When I had to abruptly quit raiding, I decided to set aside all WoW-related stuff for a while. It seems silly to work a part-time job for a game you aren't playing, after all.

I'm pretty sure I'm permanently "retired" from mythic raiding, and probably raiding at any level. It's just gotten hard to schedule the sort of time required for raiding, and nobody wants a tank who can only show up intermittently.

I have no idea whether I'll be returning. Legion looks neat, but since I can't raid... *shrug*? I may decide to come back and play casually to see the story, and/or update SimC so it's still an accurate resource for people who want to test things. But it's unlikely I'll be willing to spend the time to run comprehensive simulations analyzing the depths of our rotation the way I have in the past.
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Re: Patch 6.2

Postby Era » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:42 am

Nice to see your name pop up on the forums again! :)

theckhd wrote:... I may decide to come back and play casually to see the story, ...


That's what I did with WoD. Didn't miss raiding as much as I thought I would. I also pretty much shunned the garrison grind. Worked out fairly well!
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