Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:42 am

Finkum wrote:Random hypothesis: if the boss in your sims has some sort of big nuke on a specific timer, which if in combination with a melee would spike the tank low, then at specific haste thresholds you would have a EF tick/SS bubble that falls between the nuke and the melee. Outside of those thresholds you don't get the heal in-between and so the tank spikes lower, which gives you a larger TMI value. (Although I seem to remember you addressed something like this problem a while back by adding a random delay to the boss's swing timer?)

The boss in those sims was a T17M TMI Standard Boss with the level artificially dropped to 93. It only has auto_attack and spell_dot attacks. I'm more inclined to believe it's something affecting the rotation that we're just not thinking of.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:43 am

Thels wrote:What about a single balanced set that includes almost even amount of rating from all six secondaries? It might be more representative of how we'll be gearing up initially, grabbing whatever we get, and which direction we should take from there.

The T17 gear sets have much less rating, so they're a far closer approximation to that. It's just the T16M gear set that's running into haste-cap issues.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:47 am

Also, I re-ran the plot sims overnight with a 5-haste step size. Here they are:

EF_DP:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/42nxalbeahxtz ... .html?dl=0
Image

SS_DP:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6y2i6eev7lfj5 ... .html?dl=0
Image

So it's a very abrupt drop-off.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:50 am

Also, a side note: yesterday I tested SoT on beta, and found that they had removed the hidden, undocumented 20% multiplier (SoT procs were doing 1/5 as much for prot as for ret pretty much all expansion, thanks to a nerf in early MoP). All of our L100 Empowered Seals stuff was done with that nerf active, so I'm hoping to revisit that stuff over the next few weeks. For now I'll blithely assume that our TR rotation is still ideal and re-run just to see how much more damage that nets us. I may also add Sera_DPS entries to that list now that we have an optimized APL for it.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Fundus » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:50 am

You may have already seen these from yesterday but also:
Celestalon wrote:As you may have noticed, we don't patch note damage/healing tuning number changes. Normally, datamining catches most of these changes, so theorycrafters know when to retest things. They only are able to do this when we make new builds. However, we've hotfixed some more tuning changes in, since the last beta build. The client should reflect these changes in tooltips, however datamining likely will not. As such, I'm providing that info here. Once we go live tomorrow, we'll use the normal hotfix blog for this sort of thing.

Paladin
Avenger’s Shield damage increased by 5%.
Consecration damage increased by 5%.
Holy Wrath damage increased by 5%.
Shield of the Righteous damage increased by 5%.

I doubt that those are enough of a change to vastly effect the outcomes of the sims, but figured they should be in there if you're re-running.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:11 am

Yep, they're already coded in (though, obviously not in any data that precedes them).
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:57 am

In other news, I still haven't figured out what was causing that haste anomaly at 43%. The symptom is rather clear, but the cause is a little more confusing.

I ran the profile in question with varying amounts of haste rating added (0, 50, 60, 65, and 70). The 60 profile is at the bottom of the dip, and the 65 profile is the one in which it loses survivability. The sims are here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tgjd1p4qwalc6 ... .html?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xierrae3b3gr4 ... .html?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/94n1yxdjmt3xc ... .html?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lrrm9dqvj7jmq ... .html?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fxmeo3zfcw5uy ... .html?dl=0

What's notable is the difference in HPG gain:
Code: Select all
Haste  HPG/s  CS       J      GC     AS    Cons  HW    HoW   LH
0      0.57   141.34   95.40  17.18  49.9  54.9  35.8  15.3  7.8
50     0.60   148.55  100.41  17.19  49.3  54.8  34.2  15.5  7.7
60     0.60   148.68  100.36  17.21  49.3  54.8  34.2  15.5  7.7
65     0.59   145.10   98.00  17.19  50.9  54.1  37.3  15.4  7.7
70     0.59   145.13   98.02  17.23  50.9  54.1  37.3  15.4  7.7


It's clear that the dip is caused by an anomalously large surge in HPG (and thus SotR coverage), and the loss of TMI at 65 is similarly due to a sudden drop in HPG. The culprit appears to be less CS and J casts, and more AS/HW casts (though not more GC casts).

I've combed through the sample sequences, and can confirm that both inside and outside of windsong_haste, it's following the proper CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X rotation. The one oddity I did find is this, in the 0-haste-added parse:

Image
What you're seeing there is that it performs

CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-J-CS-X-X-

In other words, it's getting an extra CS-X-J sequence in there, because windsong_haste (indicated by the underline) caused a short J cooldown but a long CS cooldown. I wasn't able to find any similar oddities in the +60 or +65 haste setups. That said, I don't think this explains anything - it should increase HPG relative to normal operation for the 0-haste parse, so it wouldn't explain why the 50-60 haste parses are seeing a big drop.

Next guess is that it's something happening during bloodlust. I'm going to try and re-run the plot with BL and windsong disabled (individually) to see if it's some sort of edge effect due to either of those buffs. If anyone else spots anything suspicious in those reports, let me know.

In any event, I'm feeling more certain that this is some sort of rotational anomaly we're seeing in SimC and not a real effect.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:59 am

Updated L45/75/100 talent sim, with the SoT bugfix and 5% hotfixed buffs added:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6lwblhkwr5wa ... .html?dl=0
Image
Image
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:13 pm

Glyph results. Base setup is just Divine Protection (DP_only). The rest are all divine_protection + the glyph named.

Single-target:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rocr1vn247m7h ... .html?dl=0
Image

Two targets:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mq9h019i6any0 ... .html?dl=0
Image

Three targets:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8ian70me2ce ... .html?dl=0
Image


Note that Immediate Truth and Word of Glory are basically irrelevant here because we're using SoI and not using WoG at all.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Extermi » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:27 am

Hi Theck,

for the DPS simulations, did you stay with SoL except for the explicitely seal-twisting XX_XX_EmpS_DPS variants ?

If so, I am wondering if taking e.g. SS_SW_Sera how much DPS can be squeezed out in comparison when SoT is used e.g. in an off-tanking situation when the SoL heals are not needed. This could be a fairer comparison for that case.

Extermi

PS: As for the dip when adding haste. in the _65 data files I found a situation where I dont understand why it delays CS:
1:31.295 crusader_strike
1:31.295 shield_of_the_righteous
1:33.199 holy_wrath
1:34.202 judgment
1:34.402 divine_protection
1:35.208 crusader_strike

It seems to wait doing nothing (probably no filler available?) for a second to wait for HW to become ready, and then still chains judgement although CS is virtually ready, pushing it back. At 3:44 it even waits nearly 3 seconds(!) for HW to be available, casts it shortly before CS is ready again and thus pushes it back.

To me it seems this behavior is what kills the HP generation - pushing back a short-CD HP generator to instead cast a long-CD one. This seems inherent to FCFS and probably just hits some odd breakpoints when modifying haste. In the end, 3s (CS), 4.5s (J) and 15s (HW) have multiple collisions over time, and each time they are favoring one of the longer CD ones due to a split second clash, this hurts survivability.

Which leads me to think that the "dip" in the haste curve is actually a better rotation we hit by luck, and could even be reached with higher (and maybe even lower) haste. Is there any way to program more than just FCFS, something like a decision based on a dynamic weight of time remaining until skill ready divided by length of CD ? At least for the skills that generate HP ?
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:29 am

I got a weird question. Yeah, mastery is our best stat, but we're also told to pick haste up to 50%... my question is, is there a sort of ratio that would work best? like for 40% mastery, you should have 20% haste or something like that?
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:57 pm

Also, what are the chances they will revisit our attunement given that haste is near the bottom if not the bottom stat once you reac h lvl 100
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Kelerei » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:18 am

Seems more likely that they'll revisit the fact that haste is underperforming, as per this Theck post from a few days ago:

theckhd wrote:I know they're aware that haste is underperforming, and that they're not really happy about that. I've also suggested a few tweaks that could help bring haste's value up. So I wouldn't be surprised if some changes get made, but it's unlikely they'll do so at L90. It'll probably be changes on beta that will only take effect closer to WoD release.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:58 am

Extermi wrote:Hi Theck,

for the DPS simulations, did you stay with SoL except for the explicitely seal-twisting XX_XX_EmpS_DPS variants ?

If so, I am wondering if taking e.g. SS_SW_Sera how much DPS can be squeezed out in comparison when SoT is used e.g. in an off-tanking situation when the SoL heals are not needed. This could be a fairer comparison for that case.

Extermi

PS: As for the dip when adding haste. in the _65 data files I found a situation where I dont understand why it delays CS:
1:31.295 crusader_strike
1:31.295 shield_of_the_righteous
1:33.199 holy_wrath
1:34.202 judgment
1:34.402 divine_protection
1:35.208 crusader_strike

It seems to wait doing nothing (probably no filler available?) for a second to wait for HW to become ready, and then still chains judgement although CS is virtually ready, pushing it back. At 3:44 it even waits nearly 3 seconds(!) for HW to be available, casts it shortly before CS is ready again and thus pushes it back.

To me it seems this behavior is what kills the HP generation - pushing back a short-CD HP generator to instead cast a long-CD one. This seems inherent to FCFS and probably just hits some odd breakpoints when modifying haste. In the end, 3s (CS), 4.5s (J) and 15s (HW) have multiple collisions over time, and each time they are favoring one of the longer CD ones due to a split second clash, this hurts survivability.

Which leads me to think that the "dip" in the haste curve is actually a better rotation we hit by luck, and could even be reached with higher (and maybe even lower) haste. Is there any way to program more than just FCFS, something like a decision based on a dynamic weight of time remaining until skill ready divided by length of CD ? At least for the skills that generate HP ?

I'll take a look at this later today. However, you're not looking at the whole story there. You need to include what buffs were active.

For example, I'm going to guess that windsong_haste became active just after that first CS cast. Without that buff, this would have been a standard CS-X-X-CS-J-X (in other words, the last third of the cycle followed by the first third). There was nothing to cast in the first X, but then Holy Wrath became available for the second one, turning it into CS-X-HW-.

However, if windsong_haste procs after CS is cast, it won't reduce CS's cooldown (which has already started) but will reduce the GCD caused by Holy Wrath when it's cast. That creates a short (maybe 10-100 ms) gap between the GCD becoming available after HW is cast and CS coming off of cooldown. A gap that Judgment is happy to fill, pushing CS back.

It's not clear yet if that's what's causing the dip or not. Maybe it's happening all throughout the rotation, and that particular window of haste values somehow removes it from happening. I haven't had time to investigate it yet (maybe this weekend). The easy way to test for it is to repeat the haste plot sim with bloodlust turned off and a different weapon enchant, which is what I plan to do - if the dip is still there, then it's not one of those two factors.

Another thing that could fix that behavior is re-introducing the wait lines after CS and J. In other words,
Code: Select all
/wait,sec=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains<0.3

Which would force the sim to wait up to 300ms for CS to come off of cooldown, and prevent it from pushing CS back in these sorts of cases. I took those lines out because with the merging of spell and melee haste, we shouldn't have a disparity between GCD times anymore. But it may still be necessary due to dynamic haste effects.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:02 am

Klaudandus wrote:I got a weird question. Yeah, mastery is our best stat, but we're also told to pick haste up to 50%... my question is, is there a sort of ratio that would work best? like for 40% mastery, you should have 20% haste or something like that?


Not that I'm aware of. Haste is worth ~75% as much as mastery in a gear set with roughly equal amounts of each. There's obviously some synergy between them, so stacking mastery should have some effect on that. But I haven't yet seen haste>mastery in any sim results at L90. Should be easy enough to test for it though - take your own mastery-optimized character, or mine, and sim some stat weights.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:24 am

Aaaaaand now I have to rescind that last statement:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b9zhxbfnk451w ... .html?dl=0

Image


So apparently there is some balance to be struck. This profile has the following stats:
Image

I will run a reforge plot to see if I can find some expression for the optimum balance.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:38 am

Oh, I was logged out with HA and EF taken. Odd. The reforge sims will clarify things though. Entirely possible this is another dip causing the anomalous stat weights, or that it's something about HA, EF or their interaction. Need dataz!
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:51 am

Well, I wasn't expecting Haste to beat Mastery, given Mastery's synergy with holy shield, was just curious if it was MASTERY ALL THE THINGS or a more balanced approached (So many of mastery for one of haste) was recommended.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:06 pm

Reforge plots suggest that this was something to do with HA/EF.

Profile with HA/EF:
Image

Note that we add +70 haste to determine stat weights, so we're jumping from that plateau into the ditch, hence getting anomalously high haste:mastery ratio. Again, it looks like this is caused by these periodic dips, so I guess I need to make time to investigate those further.

That said, there is an overall downward slope (note how the plateaus between the dips keep getting lower), which suggests that at least for EF+HA, there's some gain to converting mastery back into haste if you have significantly more mastery.

If we switch to DP/SS:
Image
Much flatter, and no apparent gain (at least, not a significant one). Again, there may be a small negative slope, but it's less clear.

Running a simple stat scaling plot reveals:
Image

So it appears that once you have enough mastery, haste does catch up - at least to the point that it's essentially even with mastery, if not a little better. I'm running another reforge plot with a wider span to see what that tells us.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:34 pm

Interesting.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:50 pm

Nope. Definitely some balance point:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hierefqqn7uof ... .html?dl=0
Image

In this gear set I have ~55% mastery and ~29% haste. So we're looking at a 1.89:1 ratio of mastery to haste. Of course, there's no guarantee that this ratio is constant across gear sets; It could be a fixed ratio, or it could be that you always want about 25% more mastery than haste, or (more likely) it's a nonlinear relationship and the ratio just changes depending on how much you have.

I'll need to run more sims at specific gear thresholds to figure out exactly what that relationship is. Unfortunately, that's adding one thing to about 15 others that I need to do, so it may be some time until I get to it. If anyone else has some time and wants to run these sims (it's just a basic sim with a reforge plot of mastery and haste, Reforge Amount=500, Step Amount=25), that would help. Just report the haste% and mastery% that gives you close to the ideal balance. Ex: if you have 30% haste and 30% mastery (raid-buffed) and the minimum of the parabola is at -100 haste + 100 mastery, then that means the ideal ratio is somewhere around 30%-100/20=25% haste and 30%+100/23=34% mastery (roughly).
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:52 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o1ksw59dtiw1r ... .html?dl=0
Image
Haste=29.75%
Mastery=42.18%

Will do now a different gearset.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:05 pm

I tried doing a diff gear set but the TMI graph came out like this!?
Image
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:23 pm

That seems incorrect, to say the least.
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Re: Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:31 pm

theckhd wrote:That seems incorrect, to say the least.


I have no idea what happened... here's the file if you wanna check it out. https://www.dropbox.com/s/msmn6a0diuih7 ... .html?dl=0
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