SimCraft for tanks

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SimCraft for tanks

Postby Esgaroth » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:42 am

So recently my guild decided to switch over to simcraft to measure players performance etc. I made the thread on our forums for our tanks to use Being main tank for our HC progression group. I play a protection paladin for Innominatum EU 10 man HC raiding guild.

I have encountered a few problems with simcraft
1. When I sim my protection paladin I get TMI rating in the thousands. I am a full haste build paladin but even when I sim with stam gemmed I get TMI ratings in the thousands. I downloaded 540-3 today and simmed my character again and got a TMI of 7425.0k. I switched over to T16HC10 and did simulated my character and recieved this strange TMI: 4.24e+009 TMI. I get the same on my DK alt when I sim that character. With 540-2 our warrior from main group and warrior from group 2 simcrafted their characters and they got TMI rating which I would assume to be normal TMI of 640 or 320 etc, but looking at the DPS simcrafted only picked up dps from melee weapon.

Here is my armory links

Protection Paladin
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... h/advanced

Blood DK
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... a/advanced

I am happy to provide any other detail needed.

But I think there is a large need for a good guide on how to use simcraft for tanks or a bit more support.

Theck and the guys did a realy good job in bringing this to us and I understand having limited time between work, raiding and blogging :D but a guide or some sort would be greatly appreciated by the tanking community

Regards

Ess
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Sturrm » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:02 am

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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Esgaroth » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:03 pm

Thanks for the link. Being a protection paladin I follow sacredduty.com. But I am afraid that doesnt help me at all. Are we just to continue with using custom TMI all the time? whats the use of adding in T16H10/25 and T16N 10/25? And it still does not answer my warrior and DK issues with simcraft.

If you want to post, please post something usefull and not just a link to a page.

But non the less thanks for a response
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Jackinthegreen » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:39 pm

That weird 4.25e+009 is actually scientific notation, although it really should say something simple like 4.24e9. In that example just move the decimal over 9 spaces to get the actual result, if it's doing it the way I think it's doing it. Yes, that does put it in the billions, but do keep in mind that the value is based on spike damage. The damage values were recently updated by Theck to be higher.

If it is indeed in the billions then it thinks you're severely undergeared for that kind of damage. Are you finding that to be the case? There might need to be some debugging and optimizing for it, especially since your actual gear would suggest you aren't so severely undergeared that you couldn't handle it. Could you post what the action list priority was for those results?

You might be running into clashes with Holy Prism if you've got it set to go every 20 seconds or otherwise cast it when a HoPo generator will be usable in the next second. Try testing with Light's Hammer instead and see if that changes anything.

Simming a DK is another matter. While there have definitely been improvements on it such as getting the 5 second damage window functional, the nature of DK tanking means that it's going to need more iterations in the action list to really nail down what a skilled tank can do and pop out the stat weights accordingly. Is SimC actually saying you should be gemming for parry, by the way? It seems a bit odd since stamina would typically be better for a DK at reducing the impact of spikes.

Be warned that the tanking simulation is still in its infancy. It's certainly turning out to be a great tool, but take it with a grain of salt since it doesn't have years of testing behind it like DPS does.

How thoroughly have you looked through the comments at sacredduty, by the way? I seem to recall at least one discussion in the past couple months about what the numbers actually mean. If I recall correctly, having a number with 4 digits means you're in a sweet spot of sorts and even going into overgearing the content. 5 digits means you might run into trouble but should be okay. 6 or more digits means it thinks you're undergeared.
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:32 am

The general aim is that a TMI in the thousands is "appropriate." In other words:

<1k - significantly overgeared
~1k-10k - slightly overgeared to appropriately geared for the content.
10k-100k - slightly undergeared
100k+ - significantly undergeared

That said, the number is a bit fungible, and depends on the exact boss your comparing it to. I'm basing the TMI bosses on the hardest-hitting boss in a tier, in this case Garrosh. version 540-3 doesn't have the heroic bosses properly tuned - in fact, they're not hitting hard enough. 540-4 should make them significantly beefier, and a better test for heroic gear.

Don't get too caught up on the exact value of your TMI. The exact value isn't as important as whether a change improves that value. For example, it's a good tool with which to compare EF to SS, or one talent to another. The actual value in any given circumstance gives you a ballpark estimate of how well you're geared for the content, but it's not tuned such that you will always get 5k if you're in full normal-mode gear against a normal-mode boss (even the 10N and 25N bosses differ slightly).
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Esgaroth » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:27 am

Sorry for the late reply

Jackinthegreen:

Thanks for your reply, I don't think that I am severely undergeared for heroics at the moment, my ilvl is 554 at the moment although I am 6 item levels behind some of my fellow raiders.

Here is my action list priority
Image

I re-simmed last night and got 1.09e+009 TMI, I switched over to using Light's Hammer and Holy Avenger to avoid the clash you mentioned.

AS to my DK, I haven't simmed her again but will post my findings when I upgrade/replace my wrists, I don't think simC favors Timeless Isle bracers that much.

I looked briefly at the comments on sacredduty. But it was some time ago.

Theckhd:

Thanks for the reply it is greatly appreciated. And thanks for clearing up the TMI ratios. When I sim on normal mode my TMI is in the 1k area which would then be good. But the problem comes when I am simming for HC mode since that is where we are progressing at the moment. And yes, MR Hellscream hits like a truck.

Thanks for the tool it is very much usefull
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Schroom » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:19 am

And yes, MR Hellscream hits like a truck.


after killing garosh in the first week, while beeing HM ToT equiped, this came to mind: http://www.quickmeme.com/img/00/00d3220735f5b0dce552d67a01b76fb70aaa3704d9a71022026e294c69fb2b2c.jpg
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Thels » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:07 am

That's a lot of Parry on your DK. And while Parry does help on DPS thanks to Riposte, Mastery is a much better survivability stat. If you have problems staying alive on your DK, you might want to consider regemming to Mastery.

Also, how do you import your character? Timeless Isle bracers have random enchants and some websites deal poorly with random enchants, simply not including the secondary stats at all, which of course is a drop in survivability.
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Esgaroth » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:11 am

Yes Garrosh Hits hard, we also killed him the first week. Luckily that was before the EF nerf and it healed for a lot.

On my DK, I don't really do normal on my DK unless our other group needs a tank to fill in, but for flex and normal I am doing fine on my DK. Yes mastery is the way to go for blood dk's. Even stamina where needed but I wanted to test the reposite out with more parry dodge but haven't had the time/gold to go back to mastery. But thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

EDIT: I use wow armory to import
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Schroom » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:00 pm

hi, I allow myself to use this Thread for my problem...

simply put WTH?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38739176/simc_report_Schroom_15-10-2013.html

it seems absolutely correct, EXCEPT "CRIT" how come crit is > haste?... is it because of Thoks Tailtip? or what is going on :>


here is the data I simed:

Code: Select all
#!./simc

paladin="Schroom"
origin="http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/zirkel-des-cenarius/Schroom/advanced"
thumbnail="http://eu.battle.net/static-render/eu/zirkel-des-cenarius/6/63517958-avatar.jpg"
level=90
race=dwarf
role=tank
position=front
professions=blacksmithing=600/mining=600
talents=http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#bZ!001102
glyphs=divine_protection/alabaster_shield/holy_wrath/contemplation/righteous_retreat/winged_vengeance
spec=protection

# This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character.
# It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable,
# while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps.
# Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs.
# SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists.

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat=flask,type=earth
actions.precombat+=/food,type=chun_tian_spring_rolls
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_kings,if=(!aura.str_agi_int.up)&(aura.mastery.up)
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_might,if=!aura.mastery.up
actions.precombat+=/seal_of_insight
actions.precombat+=/sacred_shield,if=talent.sacred_shield.enabled
# Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=/auto_attack
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/arcane_torrent
actions+=/avenging_wrath
actions+=/holy_avenger,if=talent.holy_avenger.enabled
actions+=/divine_protection
actions+=/eternal_flame,if=talent.eternal_flame.enabled&(buff.eternal_flame.remains<2&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>2&(holy_power>=3|buff.divine_purpose.react))
actions+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=holy_power>=5|buff.divine_purpose.react|incoming_damage_1500ms>=health.max*0.3
actions+=/crusader_strike
actions+=/judgment,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=talent.sacred_shield.enabled&((target.dot.sacred_shield.remains<5)&(cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5))
actions+=/hammer_of_wrath,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/execution_sentence,if=talent.execution_sentence.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/lights_hammer,if=talent.lights_hammer.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/holy_prism,if=talent.holy_prism.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/holy_wrath,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/consecration,if=(target.debuff.flying.down&!ticking)&(cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5)
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=talent.sacred_shield.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5

head=thranoks_shattering_helm,id=103892,upgrade=2,gems=indomitable_primal_160haste_160hit_180str
neck=moonjade_necklace,id=96916,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,reforge=exp_haste
shoulders=shoulderguards_of_winged_triumph,id=99130,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste,enchant=300sta_100dodge,reforge=exp_haste
back=qianying_fortitude_of_niuzao,id=102250,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,enchant=200sta,reforge=exp_haste
chest=lightning_emperors_battleplate,id=96654,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste_320haste,enchant=300sta,reforge=exp_mastery
shirt=NombreDeLaCamisa,stats=-3000haste
tabard=tabard_of_the_wildhammer_clan,id=65908
wrists=frozen_warlords_bracers,id=96394,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,enchant=170mastery,reforge=exp_mastery
hands=handguards_of_winged_triumph,id=99127,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste_320haste,enchant=170haste,reforge=exp_hit
waist=poisonbinder_girth,id=104437,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste_320haste
legs=legplates_of_the_dark_parasite,id=96477,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_160haste_160hit_120str,enchant=430sta_165dodge,reforge=exp_mastery
feet=malkoroks_giant_stompers,id=103879,upgrade=2,gems=160haste_160hit_60crit,enchant=140mastery,reforge=exp_haste
finger1=band_of_the_scaled_tyrant,id=96500,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,reforge=hit_mastery
finger2=radens_ruinous_ring,id=95022,upgrade=2,gems=160haste_160hit_60str,reforge=exp_mastery
trinket1=spark_of_zandalar,id=96770,upgrade=2
trinket2=thoks_tail_tip,id=102305,upgrade=2
main_hand=encapsulated_essence_of_immerseus,id=105168,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,enchant=windsong,reforge=parry_haste
off_hand=ancient_mogu_tower_shield,id=105341,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,enchant=170parry,reforge=parry_haste

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=20202
# gear_stamina=33841
# gear_expertise_rating=4861
# gear_hit_rating=2553
# gear_crit_rating=60
# gear_haste_rating=18705
# gear_mastery_rating=7044
# gear_armor=61126
# gear_dodge_rating=1606
# gear_parry_rating=1957
# meta_gem=indomitable_primal
# tier16_2pc_tank=1
# trinket1=spark_of_zandalar,heroic=1,elite=1
# main_hand=encapsulated_essence_of_immerseus,elite=1,weapon=mace_2.60speed_10847min_20147max,enchant=windsong
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:31 pm

The error bars are larger than the values..... 190 +/- 200+ means you can't trust the ordering.

This is a symptom of a larger problem, which is that your health is stable because SoI+EF healing is out-pacing boss damage. And as boss damage increases, it only gets worse. SoI and EF together are scaling a little too fast with Vengeance, unfortunately.
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Schroom » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:34 pm

ok so to get an estimate "real" idea of the statweights, I take them all as they are. and put crit aside? :> that's unfortunate as I would have loved to make some tests and see the real defensive value of crit. (to see if there is a point where it might be worth skipping some, but not too much defense for offense)
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:33 am

No, it means you're reaching a region where the sim is going to give you garbage no matter what, because you're out-healing the boss's damage by a fairly large margin. So most of the time, you're not taking large spikes to begin with. I haven't figured out what to do about this yet - either it's a bug with SoI/EF that I haven't found yet, or it's simply that SoI/EF scale so well with Vengeance and haste that at a certain point, every boss attack is being offset by a huge chunk of healing.

I think most of your TMI value is from the first 10-15 seconds of the fight when EF isn't active and your Vengeance hasn't ramped up to full value, which is why the results are all over the place. The sustained effect of those stats isn't really having a significant effect, just the RNG of stuff happening in the first bit of the encounter. I think that hacking it to start you at full Vengeance and/or starting you with 3 Holy Power would give more consistent results, but I haven't had time to put those sorts of options in.
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby Schroom » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:17 am

Thanks a lot, so I wait until there is an option for this :)
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Re: SimCraft for tanks

Postby pvita » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:31 am

theckhd wrote:...the sim is going to give you garbage no matter what, because you're out-healing the boss's damage...

I am trying to figure out the stat weights with SimCraft for my character and I do observe strange results at the moment as well. By strange result I mean Mastery is being more valuable as Haste...

I went so far that I increased the amount of iterations to 1 million and reduced confidence interval to 2 sigmas only (0.682). That managed to press the simulation error down to be few times smaller as the weight value itself.

SimCraft report 49047.9 TMI, so I should be slightly undergeared for the content. My healing is reported 141k HPS. The enemy, T16N10, hits for 142k HPS.

Can it be I am observing exactly the same problem? Would it be meaningful, for the stat weights only, to increase the boss level so hits get harder?

On the other side, I doubt my guild will ever reach heroic content. I myself have no time for that any more. Would it be then actually reasonable to go for more Mastery as Haste in my particular case? Or is this idea misinterpreting the simulation totally and I pull out wrong conclusion from simulation artefact?
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