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15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Jackinthegreen » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:42 am

A conversation at http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/133 ... -confusion has me a bit curious regarding going full expertise versus trading the last 7.5%/2550 rating of it for an extra 6% haste.

The argument is that a skilled player will be able to compensate since "For any experienced protadin, the reliability of not being expertise capped is irrelevant..." I don't personally have the experience in MoP to say whether it is or isn't, although the numbers I've seen come out of sacredduty and SimC suggest that capping expertise is indeed the way to go instead of going haste.

Has anyone with experience found the thought process of simply going haste instead of the last 7.5% of expertise worth it? On the numbers side, do the numbers still show it's better to have the last 7.5% exp than the 6% haste if the player is indeed skilled enough to work around CS getting parried and such?

Should we always be saying that 15% expertise is the clear winner, or was that ever the mantra to begin with?
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:29 pm

Numbers or not (I'd be inclined to think 15% expertise is superior for HoPo gen), there are factors that can't be mapped out mathematically that are foolish to introduce to the table by not capping expertise imo.

The main one of course being the fluidity and reliability on when you generate your resource (HoPo in this case). Not having a 100% guaranteed on demand resource generating ability as a tank (any tank) in today's tanking environment is in no way conducive towards a maximum smoothing and/or mitigating build, and nothing I would personally build for. You can also have your ability not connect at the wrong time when picking up new mobs (there are quite a few add fights in SoO), and that lost GCD if your taunt is down can be deadly for another player.

There's other factors involved too which argue against expertise capping such as DPS loss probably. Also, experience and skill often don't really have anything to do with compensating for the missing expertise cap. That's just numbers that you're missing, that make your life harder. Not hard-capping expertise gives and introduction of unnecessary in rotation, resource generation, and DPS, among other things.

I can't for the life of me right now find Theck's post on Sacred Duty outlining that even missing expertise hard cap by 0.1% had profound effects, and it all illustrated the strength of expertise-capping well.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Jackinthegreen » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:44 pm

I too remember that post about being 1% under on expertise, but I can't find it either.

Between 15% exp and 7.5% exp + 6% haste, I can see the haste setup being a bit better for HoPo generation since at that point only CS is getting impacted by the expertise rating, but both CS and J get quickened by haste for more HoPo. There's also the SoI and SS boost to consider.

The poster Wanko posted SimC results where apparently his DPS and throughput and such increased with more haste vs capping expertise, but predictably it also increased his TMI since he's opening himself up to more spikes. It's obvious he doesn't actually feel that the increase in spike potential is meaningful though.


One of the things I'm wondering about for the next expansion is how they're going to handle the issue of tanks wanting to fully cap accuracy and how it takes more stats for us to cap than it does for DPS. Obviously accuracy stats will need to have an impact to make active mitigation viable, but to what end?
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:55 pm

I'm not saying it's not viable. But again, I wouldn't recommend it for various reasons. And if for nothing more than adding an element of RnG to damage smoothing as a tank. That's a no-no in my books.

Again I'll also say it, models are models, and are good (or sometimes bad) metrics to measure certain things. But nothing can truly ever replicate a raiding environment. It's absolutely possible that SimC maybe showed a slight edge in X/Y/Z for 6% haste and soft-capping expertise. But risks like not generating that holy power when I need to, or failing to pick up a mob(s) as needed, etc, are risks that I'll never be willing to take.

Furthermore, this is kind of a moot point since most people will be hovering very close to, if not over (in some builds) haste cap next tier anyways, with expertise hard-cap. In fact, you'd need to try hard to even get rid of that much expertise to go soft-cap probably.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Jackinthegreen » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:09 pm

I wouldn't call it a moot point since data coming from this sort of thing can be used both by players and by Blizzard to at least understand the game, and hopefully improve it. Plus there will still be players gearing up that will need gear advice so they can start performing better from the start.

But yeah, the risks of an attack getting parried or otherwise missing wouldn't be acceptable to me either in the MoP environment.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:10 pm

Jackinthegreen wrote:I wouldn't call it a moot point since data coming from this sort of thing can be used both by players and by Blizzard to at least understand the game, and hopefully improve it. Plus there will still be players gearing up that will need gear advice so they can start performing better from the start.


You're right, that is a valid point.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:38 pm

More appropriate reply. (which is what SacredDuty blog says as well)

15% exp allows to never miss a CS, thus making your HP generation constant and providing HP everytime when you need it.

Running around with 7.5% in hc progression means you will statistically at some point not have HP to ShoR due to a parry, resulting in a death due to that boss ability 1shotting you.

You should NEVER run below the caps in progression. NEVER.
In farm, or when just running older content to top WoL, then it's a different story.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Thels » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:50 am

How can an experienced player work his way around banking 5 HoPo and a generator to quickly pull off 6 secs of SotR? Admittedly, he could bank 2 generators and like, sit on his hands...

But let's just calculate the effect on HoPo, just for the sake of it, at the low end and the high end of haste. Let's assume a 10 minute fight (600 seconds), and we forgot to choose a level 75 talent. Yes, we're stupid like that.

0% haste, 15% expertise.
CS every 4.5 second. 133.33 CS. 133.33 HoPo.
J every 6.75 second. 88.88 J. 88.88 HoPo.
Total HoPo: 222.22.

6% haste, 7.5% expertise.
133.33 * 1.06 = 141.33 CS * 0.925 = 130.73 HoPo.
88.88 * 1.06 = 94.22 J. 94.22 HoPo.
Total HoPo: 224.95. Congratulations. We might be at the risk of missing the HoPo when we really need it, but that does return us with a pretty good chance that we can use SotR 1 additional time during a 10 minute fight! :)

44% haste, 15% expertise.
133.33 * 1.44 = 192 CS. 192 HoPo.
88.88 * 1.44 = 128 J. 128 HoPo.
Total HoPo: 320.

50% haste, 7.5% expertise.
133.33 * 1.5 = 200 CS * 0.925 = 185 HoPo.
88.88 * 1.5 = 133.33 J. 133.33 HoPo.
Total HoPo: 318.33. So, at high haste levels, not only do we lose out on reliability, we actually generate less HoPo over the course of the fight.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Promdates » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:06 am

There are a lot of people over at MMO-C who think they're really ahead of the curve as far as theorycrafting goes for Paladins. On top of that, they like to dismiss a lot of Theck's work because it's "on dummy's, not bosses". Firefly33 is the biggest issue regarding anything being said over there. He's been constantly pushing people towards using items like Ghost Iron Dragonling well into T15 content (normals, at least), along with pushing that Sanctified Wrath is the best talent of the three, and that people shouldn't go for the 15% exp cap because "other than CS, everything is on spell hit which is 7.5%+7.5%. He's also a big pusher for wanting to solo tank every.single.fight possible. He's such an advocate for single tanking that he's looking for ways to solo tank fights in Siege of Orgrimmar.

I would honestly take anything he says with a giant grain of salt. For reference, here's his armory: Firefly33. He also likes to use normal mode fights as an argument for anything with heroics. He's repeatedly argued that tank deaths never happen so the tank legendary is worthless and that we should care more about dps so we need the dps cloak.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:20 am

Thx for that I'd often wondered what his armoury was.

Every so often I can't help myself and I reply to some of his posts, mostly a fruitless exercise tho as I'm pretty crap at writing and there's no reasoning with him anyway.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:59 am

well there are "those" guys everywhere.

although I am a fan of the DPS cloak as well. BUT the Tankcloak can be pretty valuable on progression, which leads me to getting both and switching depending on Boss.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Promdates » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:06 am

daishan wrote:Thx for that I'd often wondered what his armoury was.

Every so often I can't help myself and I reply to some of his posts, mostly a fruitless exercise tho as I'm pretty crap at writing and there's no reasoning with him anyway.


I've often ranted to Nairobi about him in PM's. How he gives out this information and half of it is inherently wrong. I'm just tired of him giving out the wrong information and having people hoover it up like it's gospel.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:16 am

Promdates wrote:I've often ranted to Nairobi about him in PM's. How he gives out this information and half of it is inherently wrong. I'm just tired of him giving out the wrong information and having people hoover it up like it's gospel.


Yep I know exactly what you mean, looks like Thels is having a crack at showing him logic :lol:
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby Promdates » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:34 am

It's pointless honestly.
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Re: 15% exp vs 7.5% exp and 6% haste

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:41 am

I'll just leave this here :wink:

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