[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:01 am

Meh, I'm gonna stick to Holy Avenger myself. DP's lack of a cooldown effect doesn't make it an option for me, which leaves SW and HA. Their HoPo generation per use are practically identical, and HA has a lower cooldown, so it'll be available more often.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:11 am

Has anyone sim'd them to work out there contribution to dps?

Obviously SW and HA favour fights where they line up with high veng portions of the fight.
If there's not an obvious winner for personal survival on an encounter I'll take the highest dps option.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Jackinthegreen » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:50 am

I imagine the winner will depend on the fight: How often the ability can be (or needs to be) used, and how important it is to use that ability at those particular times.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:21 am

Let's return the discussion to Eternal Flame for a moment (and perhaps someone should change the title of the original message to include EF).

How do we optimize Eternal Flame output? With T16 4pc this is reasonably simple, since as long as you have at least 3 BoG, you don't care about HoPo for EF. Also, since you don't spend HoPo on EF, you thus spend more HoPo on SotR, and thus have more BoG than without the set bonus. You can simply refresh EF the moment you hit 5 BoG, or refresh it just before it runs out if you don't have 5 BoG yet at that point. Since it's off the GCD, you don't have to worry about pushing back CS/J like you would with SS.

However, things become a little more problematic without the set bonus. First, because you actually spend HoPo on EF, your BoG stacks will be lower. You suddenly need 18 HoPo every 30 seconds, rather than 15, to max out that 5 BoG. Secondly, you need to time your EF better. You preferably want to use EF at 5 HoPo and a generator available, so you still have 3 HoPo available in a time of need.

With the set bonus, EF will be great! Without the set bonus, it'll require both decent haste and skill to pull off well. Perhaps newer players should be recommended to stick to SS until they got the 4 piece?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Worldie » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:36 am

Thels wrote:(and perhaps someone should change the title of the original message to include EF).

Done for you dear.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Diceone » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:48 pm

I think there's still something to be said about refreshing EF with a weaker version of itself.

During high tank damage portions of the fight, which is where these things really matter imo, there's a pretty high chance that you'll want to toss out another EF on yourself to save yourself from death. I've done this pretty often and there are times when I'm been tossing them out pretty frequently via DP when it's proccing a lot.

What I'm concerned about in these situations that doesn't apply to SS is that tossing out another EF to save yourself will result in a significantly smaller dot portion, which will throw the whole comparison out of whack.

Don't get me wrong, I'm probably going to switch to EF right away as well but there's some things we can do with SS that we can't do with EF because of the hopo cost that isn't exactly easily modelled. Doing things like refreshing Ss at high vengeance vs trying to get a larger EF rolling. SS it's a no brainer, but with EF your opportunity cost goes up a fair bit. With high haste and DP this isn't that big of a deal but is still something to consider.

I still think EF is good with or without the 4Pt16 but without it we're going to run into some weird situations. It's probably going to be amazing for the patchwork situations or aoe tanking even without the set bonus but thinking on fights on the ptr that have semi-frequent tank swaps or long periods where you cannot generate HoPo SS might be a more reliable option.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:13 pm

Thanks Worldie.

Refreshing EF just because your vengeance is high won't work. SS is only based on vengeance. EF is also based on current HoPo and BoG. If your vengeance is higher, but your BoG stacks are lower, it's probably not worth it to refresh.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Paoanii » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:19 pm

Thels wrote:Thanks Worldie.

Refreshing EF just because your vengeance is high won't work. SS is only based on vengeance. EF is also based on current HoPo and BoG. If your vengeance is higher, but your BoG stacks are lower, it's probably not worth it to refresh.


Does the HoT benefit from BoG? I was under the impression that only the initial heal of EF scaled with BoG stacks. I could be wrong but I thought they changed that in MoP Beta when you could get 200k+ ticks from EF with mastery stacking.

Edit: You can ignore this, I read threads good. It's mentioned in another thread that it was changed at some point 5.3+.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:44 pm

Paoanii wrote:Edit: You can ignore this, I read threads good. It's mentioned in another thread that it was changed at some point 5.3+.

I think it was changed in 5.1.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:27 am

I did a check to see what low haste values would have for an effect on this. I built a character that used exclusively ToT LFR gear with Strength/Stamina/Hit/Expertise/Mastery/Parry/Dodge, then gemmed and reforged for Hit > Expertise > Haste > Mastery > Dodge/Parry > Crit/Spirit. I pitted the character against a 25 man normal boss, assuming that'll be more in line with the content the character will be performing in T16. That might've been overshooting things.

The character: http://chardev.org/profile/66069-T15LFRSS.html
Sim results with SS: http://thels.nl/t15lfrss.html
Sim results with EF: http://thels.nl/t15lfref.html

With SS, TMI was only 300k. With EF, TMI was a grand 1.6m. And that's with the T15 bonus, which benefits EF more than SS.

I do expect that EF is only advantageous, if we have the haste to quickly build up some BoG stacks. If we don't, EFs output is going to be much lower, and will cause much bigger gaps in SotR.

EDIT: Also, 1% of the SotR were avoided. Does the human racial not apply to SotR in SimC? If so, is that a bug or an adequate representation of in-game?
Last edited by Thels on Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:16 am

this would mean that there is a SS/EF Threshold. would be really curious what this Threshold might be :)
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:27 am

Thels wrote:EDIT: Also, 1% of the SotR were avoided. Does the human racial not apply to SotR in SimC? If so, is that a bug or an adequate representation of in-game?

Definitely a bug, though I have no idea how that would've been introduced. I'll have to do some digging, was this with 530-7?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Paoanii » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:03 am

Thels wrote:I did a check to see what low haste values would have for an effect on this. I built a character that used exclusively ToT LFR gear with Strength/Stamina/Hit/Expertise/Mastery/Parry/Dodge, then gemmed and reforged for Hit > Expertise > Haste > Mastery > Dodge/Parry > Crit/Spirit. I pitted the character against a 25 man normal boss, assuming that'll be more in line with the content the character will be performing in T16. That might've been overshooting things.

The character: http://chardev.org/profile/66069-T15LFRSS.html
Sim results with SS: http://thels.nl/t15lfrss.html
Sim results with EF: http://thels.nl/t15lfref.html

With SS, TMI was only 300k. With EF, TMI was a grand 1.6m. And that's with the T15 bonus, which benefits EF more than SS.

I do expect that EF is only advantageous, if we have the haste to quickly build up some BoG stacks. If we don't, EFs output is going to be much lower, and will cause much bigger gaps in SotR.

EDIT: Also, 1% of the SotR were avoided. Does the human racial not apply to SotR in SimC? If so, is that a bug or an adequate representation of in-game?



*whispers quietly* Psssssst, Thels. Your sim never used EF.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:03 am

theckhd wrote:
Thels wrote:EDIT: Also, 1% of the SotR were avoided. Does the human racial not apply to SotR in SimC? If so, is that a bug or an adequate representation of in-game?

Definitely a bug, though I have no idea how that would've been introduced. I'll have to do some digging, was this with 530-7?


Yes. I haven't checked with other races yet, to see if it's really the racial.

Paoanii wrote:*whispers quietly* Psssssst, Thels. Your sim never used EF.


Boy, do I feel stupid now!

Guess I'll have to mess with the action list. I'll try something tomorrow, if I have time for that, or perhaps Theck is willing to share the action list he used?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Winkle » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:01 am

Having never used SimC i could be very wrong here but the default action list doesn't contain Eternal Flame. It has two lines for the use of sacred shield if selected as a talent but none for EF.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:38 am

yeah, one has to add it manually for now. Theck showed this in his new Blogpost on sacred duty.


now regarding this I did a sim too with this new info.

I took my toon as is: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/z ... m/advanced

I now in options -> version I chose PTR
on TMI Standard Boss I chose. T16Q

I then added the line for EF and changed 2 talents: EF instead of SS, and DivPurp instead of HA:

Code: Select all
#!./simc

paladin="Schroom"
origin="http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/zirkel-des-cenarius/Schroom/advanced"
thumbnail="http://eu.battle.net/static-render/eu/zirkel-des-cenarius/6/63517958-avatar.jpg"
level=90
race=dwarf
role=tank
position=front
professions=blacksmithing=600/mining=600
talents=http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#bZ!101121
glyphs=divine_protection/battle_healer/alabaster_shield/contemplation/righteous_retreat/winged_vengeance
spec=protection

# This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character.
# It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable,
# while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps.
# Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs.
# SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists.

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat=flask,type=earth
actions.precombat+=/food,type=chun_tian_spring_rolls
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_kings,if=(!aura.str_agi_int.up)&(aura.mastery.up)
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_might,if=!aura.mastery.up
actions.precombat+=/seal_of_insight
# Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=/auto_attack
actions+=/avenging_wrath
actions+=/holy_avenger,if=talent.holy_avenger.enabled
actions+=/divine_protection
actions+=/eternal_flame,if=talent.eternal_flame.enabled&dot.eternal_flame.remains<2&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>3
actions+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=(holy_power>=5)|(buff.divine_purpose.react)|(incoming_damage_1500ms>=health.max*0.3)
actions+=/hammer_of_the_righteous,if=target.debuff.weakened_blows.down
actions+=/crusader_strike
actions+=/judgment,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=talent.sacred_shield.enabled&((target.dot.sacred_shield.remains<5)&(cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5))
actions+=/hammer_of_wrath,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/execution_sentence,if=talent.execution_sentence.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/lights_hammer,if=talent.lights_hammer.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/holy_prism,if=talent.holy_prism.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/holy_wrath,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/consecration,if=(target.debuff.flying.down&!ticking)&(cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5)
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=talent.sacred_shield.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5

head=lightning_emperors_helmet,id=96656,upgrade=2,gems=capacitive_primal_320haste_180crit,reforge=hit_mastery
neck=moonjade_necklace,id=96916,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,reforge=dodge_haste
shoulders=lightning_emperors_pauldrons,id=96658,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste,enchant=300sta_100dodge,reforge=mastery_haste
back=tigerclaw_cape,id=98147,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,enchant=200sta,reforge=crit_exp
chest=lightning_emperors_battleplate,id=96654,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste_320haste,enchant=300sta
shirt=undisputed_champions_shirt,id=98082
tabard=tabard_of_the_wildhammer_clan,id=65908
wrists=frozen_warlords_bracers,id=96394,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,enchant=170mastery,reforge=exp_mastery
hands=pathogenic_gauntlets,id=96496,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste_320haste,enchant=170haste,reforge=hit_mastery
waist=cloudbreaker_greatbelt,id=96373,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste_320haste
legs=legplates_of_the_dark_parasite,id=96477,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_160haste_120sta_120str,enchant=430sta_165dodge
feet=haunted_steel_treads,id=94265,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste,enchant=175haste
finger1=band_of_the_scaled_tyrant,id=96500,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,reforge=hit_mastery
finger2=radens_ruinous_ring,id=95022,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,reforge=exp_mastery
trinket1=fabled_feather_of_jikun,id=96470,upgrade=2,reforge=hit_haste
trinket2=spark_of_zandalar,id=96770,upgrade=2
main_hand=qons_flaming_scimitar,id=96534,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_320haste,enchant=dancing_steel,reforge=exp_haste
off_hand=greatshield_of_the_gloaming,id=96512,upgrade=2,gems=320haste,enchant=170parry,reforge=dodge_haste

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=17664
# gear_stamina=30309
# gear_expertise_rating=5102
# gear_hit_rating=2567
# gear_crit_rating=1099
# gear_haste_rating=20784
# gear_mastery_rating=5852
# gear_armor=58348
# gear_dodge_rating=1090
# gear_parry_rating=170
# meta_gem=capacitive_primal
# tier15_2pc_melee=1
# trinket2=spark_of_zandalar,heroic=1,elite=1
# main_hand=qons_flaming_scimitar,heroic=1,weapon=sword_2.60speed_8674min_16109max,enchant=dancing_steel


the result tho was somewhat shocking...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38739176/simc_report_Schroom_05-09_PTR_EF_noset.html

201.2k TMI seams really bad....

what did I do wrong?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Winkle » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:24 am

Bad in comparison to what?

You would expect your TMI to go up when comparing T15 to T16 bosses. TMI would also likely increase when comparing 5.3 performance to 5.4 performance, i.e. current SS to nerfed SS.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:13 am

yeah but 201.2 "K" seems tremendous. as one should aim for about 2k - 10k for the content you progress.

I expected similar results as the ones Theck got for slootbags sims. As my gear is not so different.

201.2 K seems incorrect.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby wrathblood » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:37 am

Theck pitted Sloot against the t15H25 boss, not the T16 boss.

Here, I'll run me against the T16Q boss with PTR rules and see how I turn out. I'm using HA instead of DP and I've got boss-fight set to LightMovement. Gear is reasonably standard, ilevel ~540ish, t15 2p.

I've included the line: actions+=/eternal_flame,if=talent.eternal_flame.enabled&(target.dot.eternal_flame.remains<5)&(holy_power>=3)&(buff.bastion_of_glory.react>=3) just before the first ShoR line.

Which means the first priority usage for HoPo will be EF, but it will only cast EF if I've got 3 or more HoPo, less than 5 seconds remaining on my current EF HoT, and 3 or more stacks of BoG.

And the results:

T16Q T15H25
TMI 651K 11.8K
DTPS 139K 113K
EFuptime 97.5% 97.6%
ShoR% 52.1% 52.0%

So there you go. The T16 boss hits about 20% harder than the T15H25 boss and that spikes my TMI from a little under 12K to 651K.

Edit - In case anyone was curious, my average EF cast was for 760K and my average EF tick was for 171K.

Edit2 - Running it again with SS enabled instead of EF gives a TMI of 13M. Million. Which seems high, but its actually only twice what I was getting with EF. So its worse, but not vastly worse. That's kind of a big number, though.

Edit3 - Oh, wait. That's TWENTY times as high, isn't it? That's weird. You know, maybe there is a problem.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:22 am

wrathblood wrote:Theck pitted Sloot against the t15H25 boss, not the T16 boss.


ok this was the part I oversaw.. but as you said "there might be a problem" because as I said. it nonetheless seems too high...

thou my question.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby wrathblood » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:39 am

I've been playing with Simcraft and tinkering with maximum HoT-duration refresh times for EF (only recast if the HoT has less than 10 seconds left vs 9 vs 8, etc all the way down to 0. Which was kind of entertaining. Since you can't have negative time left on the HoT, it would never cast it).

Here's how the table goes (sorry for the ugliness):

Seconds EFs EF% ShoR% dtps hps TMI
1 14.5 93.2 53.4 137691 135486 2625
2 14.8 95 53.2 137454 135476 707
3 15.3 96 52.9 138219 136195 9372
4 15.6 96.8 52.5 138278 136073 8297
5 16.2 97.5 52.1 138495 136317 395
6 16.6 97.7 51.9 139015 136830 477
7 17.3 97.8 51.7 138717 136438 433
8 17.7 97.9 51.4 138837 136561 496
9 18.2 97.9 50.9 139281 136812 527
10 18.7 97.9 50.5 139874 137459 640

I didn't list # of SHoRs because it corresponds perfectly with ShoR%, whereas # of EFs and EF% do not. The EFs and ShoRs trade off evenly for each other.

The spike in TMI at 1 makes sense because you're only refreshing when the duration is under 1 second, so EF will occasionally fall off. But the big spikes at 3 and 4 perplex me.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:02 pm

I simed again btw, this time with a T15-25HM Boss:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38739176/simc_report_Schroom_05-09_PTR_EF_noset_T1525HM.html

TMI went down to 5700. which is more like what I suspected.

allthough the Normaliuzed stat weights bug me...

Image

this would mean I would have to go full out stamina as of 5.4 (for T15-25HM !!!)

and also it means sta>mas>has

I don't get it... this can't be correct... can it?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:29 am

Mastery over haste is a bit of a surprise. You still want to gem for secondary stats, though, with the double benefit.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:08 am

true, I mixed up both sims while evaluating my gear... nonetheless as you say mas>has is a surprise. it would absically mean that I would have to swap out my hastegems for mastery gems (considering socketbonuses that are worth it) and reforge to mastery instead of haste.

this would make me lose 23.36% haste and drop me back to 25.54% and make me gain 15.70% mastery up to a total of 38.45%

I'm "OK" with that. nonetheless it seems a bit strange that mastery would overtake haste like that.

edit: ok after resimming with the regemmed/forged toon haste was back to being amazingly strong. I guess this is because of how close I am to haste cap right now. so simc devaluates haste like this.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Sagara » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:24 am

Well, how much stat is added in the scaling calculation? Because if that amount is greater than the haste you still need to cap, you're definitly right.

Otherwise, you should get the normal Haste value. An idea to check this is to artificially deduce some haste (a bit like you did with your reforge/regem), something like 500 or 1k stat and rerun the check.
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