[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:59 am

my arguements against it are:

EF does not Prevent damage. EF will always push up your TMI!
you need HoPo for EF. which costs SoTR uptime
you use your BoG stacks. which makes you lose an a Oh-$hit! button.
you aren't as free to use a WoG on your ratemembers to save someones live. or help heal the raid for a moment when your healers are busy.

as I said. I see SoI going into 70-80% overheal. I can't see how another HoT like EF will do more good than harm here.

even if the raw healing is bigger (which it sure is). But that is just NOT an argument. It's like if a healers says: guys I want to play World rank 1 on WoL please. Everybody stand in the fire now! so i don't produce overhealing....

there is an old saying between healers. If you play world rank 1 as a healer. it is not that you are the best in the world. But your raid is probably one of the worst.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:48 am

Schroom wrote:my arguements against it are:

EF does not Prevent damage. EF will always push up your TMI!
you need HoPo for EF. which costs SoTR uptime
you use your BoG stacks. which makes you lose an a Oh-$hit! button.
you aren't as free to use a WoG on your ratemembers to save someones live. or help heal the raid for a moment when your healers are busy.

as I said. I see SoI going into 70-80% overheal. I can't see how another HoT like EF will do more good than harm here.

even if the raw healing is bigger (which it sure is). But that is just NOT an argument. It's like if a healers says: guys I want to play World rank 1 on WoL please. Everybody stand in the fire now! so i don't produce overhealing....

there is an old saying between healers. If you play world rank 1 as a healer. it is not that you are the best in the world. But your raid is probably one of the worst.


I'm very undecided about EF or SS, here's how I see some of the points you brought up:-

TMI. I haven't played with EF on SimC yet (not even sure if all of the buffs/nerfs are implemented yet) but if EF ticks are sufficiently strong and fast enough enough I can see EF reducing TMI.

SotR uptime. Once we have T16 4P EF won't cost us SotR uptime, ofc it's debatable how soon we'll want T16 tier assuming T15 4P isn't nerfed.

BoG stacks. Completely agree with this, probably EF's biggest draw back imo.

Over heal. SoI over heals a lot but the same argument that was used for modelling SoI as zero over heal can be used for EF. That is when we're in danger of dieing very little of any HoT will go to over heal. Will be fight dependent ofc, fights with steady tank dmg like hard hitting DoTs ect will favour EF somewhat.

Personally I'll probably wait for T16 4P before I regularly use EF, can't say I really like maintenance buffs.
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:57 am

the one thing is, I don't know If I really want 4p.

2 piece. sure. I take the Helmet and the gloves which have haste on them and give a minimal stat loss to the nonset counterparts. but a nice 2 piece bonus.

4 piece imo will only be interesting If I can keep my 50% haste with these 2 nonhaste items. And this would mean I would lose stamina (As i would need to gem more haste to keep 50% haste) so

Once we have T16 4P EF won't cost us SotR uptime
is not quite correct. you only won't lose SoTR uptime if you stay at the same haste level, but you'll lose stamina (or mastery depending on your post 50% haste choice).

so overall, I don't see myself using the 4 piece except very late when SoO HM is on farm anyhow. As I would pass on the 3rd and 4rd setpiece anyhow in favor of locks and priests.

That is when we're in danger of dieing very little of any HoT will go to over heal


yes, but this is a situation that should not happen in the first place. and that is exactly what SS helps to do. to prevent ever getting into danger of dieing! EF does not prevents damage. it only works well when the spike, you desperately try to prevent. As a tank this just bugs me...

also, if one ever gets into danger of dieing, we have so many tools to use in this case.

we got WoG with BoG stacks (which we won't have with EF). We have LoH, we have AD to get our healers a little time if everything else fails. we got healthstones, and HP-pots, which help a lot! Hell I even use first aid and FoL in some situations. Also if a tank is in danger of dieing we got 9 other players (or 24) who notice this an know exactly that the death of a tank, in most cases, means a wipe. you got your healers that use their cooldowns in this case, we got external cooldowns. all in all there is soooo much we can use, if we ever get into this situation.

and if this ever happens, it is a situation I have never been for long, by that I mean not even for the duration of a swingtimer before any of those above things happend and turned me back to being topped off.

and this is what we see when looking at logs. 60-70% overheal of SoI.

If this is the amount I have with SoI EF will never be fully efficient.

also, I did a lot of raidtesting on PTR and to be honest even with the scaling I had a hard time trying to die when a wipe was called.

our flex raid kill of Galakras yesterday was even so foul in fact the at 10% I and my warrior tankpartner downed it solo because even as it was called a wipe, we could not die, so we killed it instead.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:04 am

Schroom wrote:my arguements against it are:

EF does not Prevent damage. EF will always push up your TMI!
you need HoPo for EF. which costs SoTR uptime
you use your BoG stacks. which makes you lose an a Oh-$hit! button.
you aren't as free to use a WoG on your ratemembers to save someones live. or help heal the raid for a moment when your healers are busy.

as I said. I see SoI going into 70-80% overheal. I can't see how another HoT like EF will do more good than harm here.

even if the raw healing is bigger (which it sure is). But that is just NOT an argument. It's like if a healers says: guys I want to play World rank 1 on WoL please. Everybody stand in the fire now! so i don't produce overhealing....

there is an old saying between healers. If you play world rank 1 as a healer. it is not that you are the best in the world. But your raid is probably one of the worst.



I had initial reservations against EF too, but I've been testing around with it quite a lot lately, and with 4PT16, it's quite potent.

TMI, is just what it is ultimately, a model. Albeit a very powerful one, nothing can ever replicate an actual raiding environment. While I always fancy Theck's work, to me it is to be used as a great guide, not as the Holy Paladin Bible of there being only 1 correct answer (unless there's massive disparity), I'm hoping he agrees with me on that.
I'll try to give my viewpoint on your counterarguments of EF for the others too, see if that stirs a bit of discussion.

You need 0 HoPo for EF with 4PT16 as I said, which makes the set all the more attractive (among other, possibly broken, reasons). Did I mentioned the free EF/WoG cast also has a chance to produce DP? The argument for EF is indeed made weaker without the 4PT16, but is not null.

The BoG stacks was initially something I was concerned about too with the fishing argument for 3 BoG 4PT16. But the actual use for EF isn't nearly as invasive for BoG stacks as would a fishing game be. With Haste levels where they will be (and frankly already are), and DP on top of it (since the 4PT16 strengthens DP over HA further), you get BoG in no time it seems now within that 30s window between EF reapplications. Every fight I tested it on I was never in a concern of "Ah crap, I really needed a BoG heal, don't have it, and will now die because of it". Also not to mention that it is quite likely that an EF just ticked or is about to tick to make that further less likely, don't forget you still have the EF cast at your disposal, and regardless of BoG or not, heals for quite a bit at appropriate vengeance levels.

You are as free to use EF as you would WoG on someone in the raid to help them heal.

The facts are in the information, and there is not necessarily a clear winner for SS or EF (imo). Everyone's job is to take the given information and use it skillfully to assess what would be best for their play style etc. But EF is certainly a contending choice now, and that tier can't just be ignored anymore by crowning SS the clear winner.
I understand there's a level of comfort and skepticism, after we've been using SS for the entire expansion, and I love my SS too, but I don't think that's a just reason to blind ourselves to potential advantages in other areas.

Now let's also be fair and mention some perks for EF over SS, since we spent everything defending why EF isn't better for now.
-EF scales with Mastery and Haste, and we need a new stat after reachable Haste cap (Stam is another option), SS does not scale with anything but haste for secondary stats.

-EF benefits from crit as each individual HoT has its own chance to crit, and makes it so that we can in fact benefit from all 3 stats on the amp trinket.

-EF costs nothing with 4PT16 and can proc DP if you use DP.

-Each EF ticks for ~1.5 to 2.5 time of a bigger heal than SS, and ticks twice as often. The amount of EF healing per SS absorb is in the range of 3.1-4 times. Just as an example (and keeping the proc numbers rounded for simplicity). At 250k vengeance (typical 25 man vengeance, give or take a bit with the new Vengeance nerfs but harder hitting bosses), we get a 102k SS absorb every 4 seconds, or we can get a 164k EF tick every 2 seconds, which can also crit. Now I always say, and very much agree with, absorbs are always better than reactive heals after the damage has been taken. But this idea needs to be analyzed deeper, primarily with health pools, of which we will have big ones since we have a fairly high Stam multiplier (25%), and 2 of our 5 viable trinkets this tier are stam based, with one being a general BiS contender (keyword being general). If you have a small health pool, and are often spiking for 90% of your health, then an absorb in this situation is far more beneficial than a tick heal, because you are very much at risk of dying, and the visual spike causes all kinds of problems with healing/smoothing. However as your health pool grows, so do according spikes in health. What was a 90% spike before turns into a 30% (exaggerated numbers) spike instead, and to me tick healing here starts to become stronger than absorbs in raw numbers, as there is also no visual emergency of you dying. I'm aware it's also how often we overheal with it etc, and that will vary fight to fight. But for what it's worth, any good player needs to analyze the current tier on a boss by boss basis, rather than make an sweeping generalizations about SS vs EF. It make very well be, that EF is better for some, and SS for others. It depends on a lot of factors.
The aforementioned EF numbers are for Mastery levels around 13-14%, something that will increase with the coming tier.
EF indeed doesn't prevent damage, but let's consider a very simple example here barring outside support. A boss melees for 350k every 2 seconds. Based on the above numbers.
With SS: Swing 1 gets reduced to 248k, and Swing 2 hits for the full 350k
With EF: Swing 1 hits for 350k and you heal for 164k (so net 186k damage), Swing 2 is the exact same, since EF will tick every 2s.
even if the raw healing is bigger (which it sure is). But that is just NOT an argument.

I disagree, in fact, it is a very good argument considering other mandatory factors. Not just size, but frequency too. If SS prevented me from ever going below 90% health like was earlier suggested, then sure SS all the way. But that's not the World (of Warcraft) we live in anymore. 102k absorb every 4s is frankly pretty puny considering some of the things waiting in SoOl, and frankly I want the highest self output possible because there's a lot of fights/situations in SoO with a constant and frequent damage intake, not to mention magic damage. We can also just peek at each boss.
Immerseus - heroic has dots/your bound to eat void zones sometimes too, but relatively tame overall.
Protectors - Constant damage if you tank Rook/caster chick, same with He due to poisons and fast swings. Transitions are packed with extra damage from multiple sources (aside He's).
Norushen - Pulsing AoE the whole fight, bolts to intercept, adds pulsing, pools to soak
Sha - A bit more tame but will ramp up in aoe as the fight drags and pride increases
Galakras - Multiple mobs constantly hitting you, often.
Juggernaut - Heavy fire DoT, 2nd phase AoE pulses, lines if you get it.
Shaman - a mess of magic and physical swings, often
Nazgrim - a bit more tame, generally just melees are dangerous with sunder
Malkorok - Constant healing for shield needed, no realistic cap on it when you are tanking him
Spoils - adds constantly hitting you frequently
Thok - breaths/aoe/dots ahoy on the tanks
Blackfuse - fire/lasers/aoe and hard hitting melee
Paragons - everything happens here, magic, double melee mobs hitting you often. too many sources of damage to list
Garrosh - adds/dot/aoe pulses
Again if you have the appropriate health pool (which we will even default by gear ilvl increase) to take all of this abuse, and there will be a lot of it frequently, I personally opt for the reasonably higher personal HPS throughput. I don't think you'll be seeing nearly as much overhealing as you think. From my testing I was having 40% range and never higher than 60%, or lower than 20%. And keep in mind, a lot of it often was from the initial heal just reapplying EF every 30s, not the HoT component.

-EF has more effective off healing for the raid than WoG, as you can also use it to blanket members, which helps with high vengeance.

-EF frees up a GCD every ~30s.

It is also worth mentioning as a side note. There is currently a build for 4PT16 involving Harsh Words which frankly is overpowered and is likely to get nerfed. If however it goes live, then the argument for EF becomes moot, as Harsh Words does not function with EF.
Last edited by Slootbag on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Slootbag
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:07 am

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Jackinthegreen » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:10 pm

EF does indeed scale with crit, haste, and mastery. Did you mean to say SS scales only with haste and not mastery, though? Since our mastery doesn't affect SS, but haste does affect it.
Jackinthegreen
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:22 pm

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby marsbubble » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:33 pm

I know its far from conclusive, but does this mean haste is still going to be the strongest build going into 5.4? I've been holding off on gearing it because of the proposed changes, but I'd like to start gearing up my pally for main raid tanking asap.
marsbubble
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:18 am

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:07 pm

Control/Haste build will stay the strongest in 5.4 regardless of talent choices.

Hit 7.5% > Exp 15% > Haste to 50% > Mast > Dodge=Parry

The level you raid at will mostly decide whether you prio Stam above or just below Haste.
If you're tanking a lot of mobs avoidance may move ahead of Mastery.
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:16 pm

I don't know where this misconseption of haste not being viable anymore comes from. I read a lot of people whining about it (I don't mean you mars). sanctity of battle did not get nerfed. As long as that is, haste stays very strong. (at least until 50% where other stats start to catch up and more haste could mess up our roation)

thanks Slootbag for this very informative answer. I see where you're going with it speaking of huge lifepools.

I also aggre that it is always encounter dependant. it has been the same with every other talent. also it is dependant on group setup. we mainly heal with druid/shaman/paly. or druid/shaman/monk which makes it pretty HoT heavy already in the first place. also with tanks wearing the same gear in 10 man and 25 man, but bosses hitting weaker in 10 man this also has to be considered.

As I stated in 10 man I really never feel in danger of dying. Not on live, not on ptr. Even 90% spikes (except for some special attacks) are very rare at my current gear level.

The DP argument is pretty interesting tho.

so what I conclude is basically what I knew already but have yet to encounter. but I'll keep it in mind as option should I find it an option during progression.

btw my SS ticks are < 4 secs with 50% haste allready. (considering SoI and all buffs)

fairly, comparing real world, my healer made the point today while discussing the topic.

"EF could be stronger when it is less then 50% overheal, to be fair this has never happened (to us) in the past or on ptr, so almost never"

the general misconseption was that I've been told that you meant EF would be always > SS which, I guess you agree. Is not true but has to be judged on situation.

I would very much like to see Theck's opinion on the topic, because, as you said yourself Theck's work is great but no holy Bible (and I agree), but, no offense, neither is yours :) and after all. Discussion and exchange of facts and discoveries is why where here after all, isn't it?
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:33 pm

Jackinthegreen wrote:EF does indeed scale with crit, haste, and mastery. Did you mean to say SS scales only with haste and not mastery, though? Since our mastery doesn't affect SS, but haste does affect it.


Aye I meant haste for SS, fixed, thanks!

marsbubble wrote:I know its far from conclusive, but does this mean haste is still going to be the strongest build going into 5.4? I've been holding off on gearing it because of the proposed changes, but I'd like to start gearing up my pally for main raid tanking asap.


What Schroom said above, not sure where this Haste scare is coming from. Haste is still "king" for 5.4 for control builds. I think people got scared of the GC change too much (which ironically this tier will prove to be a buff in many encounters).
Either way, stick with Haste much like has been said. After that Mastery or Stam stacking. The more advanced answer is Mastery or Stam depending on the fight at hand.

Schroom wrote:I also aggre that it is always encounter dependant. it has been the same with every other talent. also it is dependant on group setup. we mainly heal with druid/shaman/paly. or druid/shaman/monk which makes it pretty HoT heavy already in the first place. also with tanks wearing the same gear in 10 man and 25 man, but bosses hitting weaker in 10 man this also has to be considered.

As I stated in 10 man I really never feel in danger of dying. Not on live, not on ptr. Even 90% spikes (except for some special attacks) are very rare at my current gear level.


Yeah the story changes in 10 man, because the damage intake is noticeably smaller. So in the whole "health pool" example that I gave, it's easier to simulate a larger health pool because the bosses hit that much weaker, which would indeed drive a stronger case for SS on some encounters, again depending on the relative damage intake.

Schroom wrote:btw my SS ticks are < 4 secs with 50% haste allready. (considering SoI and all buffs)


Right, I rounded up the SS ticks to 4s for ease of just making a point. They are indeed below 4s for many people now, but keep in mind EF ticks scale with Haste accordingly too, at the same rate as SS I believe. So if your SS absorb tick timer is let's say 4s then EF tick is 2s. Get more Haste and that number may become 3.8s for SS, but it also becomes 1.9s for EF tick.

Schroom wrote:"EF could be stronger when it is less then 50% overheal, to be fair this has never happened (to us) in the past or on ptr, so almost never"


Numbers are numbers, and since EF is reactive healing you can very well one pull get 80% overhealing, and the next pull get 10% overhealing. It depends on the damage intake, if it is frequent and constant, that EF overhealing will go down, as there is constantly damage to heal, again, probably less so in 10 man.

Schroom wrote:but, no offense, neither is yours :) and after all. Discussion and exchange of facts and discoveries is why where here after all, isn't it?


Never said mine was :) I am (for better or worse) no dictator, and enjoy buzzing with the community to bounce ideas etc very much. Anyone who watches my stream knows I like to be part of the community. I don't call my choices the only right way to do things or anything of the sort, and never will. Many choices are viable, I like to explain mine and explain facts on mine and other possibilities and see what others think. Whether or not they accept it or reject is totally their choice based on playstyle and fun. This is a game after all :P
Image
User avatar
Slootbag
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:07 am

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Xfighter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:50 pm

Overall I feel like the EF change may work out to be pretty sizeable in 10-mans, at least under my situation raid-comp wise. For every single heroic progression boss so far this tier (a decent bit slower than some of you though), sitting at 11/13 with sub 3% wipes on Lei shen with 2 healers on every boss, except for our first ever Qon kill. We then dropped to 2 on every subsequent kill on Qon as well.


On most bosses, with SS+SoI, I find that I hardly need actual constant healing from the healers in the average case. Essentially Lifebloom+Rejuv or a shaman ES/Riptide accounts for most of the external healing on me already. So being able to further increase that amount of self healing allowing healers to either help more with DPS on the boss or focus on the other tank & raid, would seem more beneficial overall. The whole EF thing could work out to be quite a bit less overhealing, if you're able to more or less tell the healers they don't need to watch you as much. In Schrooms case, I can see how rolling 3 healers typically would result in SS being superior, typically.

The case could be made though, that if you are capable of being more self-sustaining in the long term, being able to drop that 3rd healer completely in favor of another DPS may work better for the raid overall.




In your example above about never finding yourself in a troublesome spot, and when you do having the BoG-WoG/all the available CDs at the ready, you could raise several counter points against that concept. From my personal experience, throughout the last few years and more so now with great state tanks are in - the majority of my tank deaths are either to a mistimed CD, messing up AM, or healers are forced to move for a longer period of time/are catching up on some raid damage, and the tank dies due to a lapse in direct tank healing for 4-6+ sec or so.

The majority of the "tank killers" these days are telegraphed extremely well and are more often than not on a pretty rigid timing structure. These large spikes in damage can typically be accounted for, and the proper mechanics (personal or external) are used to counter them safely. The rest of the time, what will kill the tank is some form of DoT, or breath, or melee+dot+melee, etc. Essentially a combination of damage sources that add up to a fatal amount in a specific window of time, very rarely is it a special attack alone that kills you.


Thus even though you aren't directly reducing parts of that fatal damage by hoping to prevent a melee+dot+melee+dot+melee (or whatever) with a bit of absorbs, you are still effectively mitigating each source of damage by a larger amount than an absorb would have prevented. And then since tank deaths that aren't CD-misses generally occur over a set period of time (2,4,6 etc secs), you increase that threshold of what constitutes as fatal damage more than an absorb or two would in that same time period.





Again like most are saying, it will be down to a per-fight basis, but I personally feel EF will be stronger on a good chunk of them due to it being able to mitigate some of the magnitude of whatever string of damage ends up in a tank death in normal cases other than preventing a small chunk of a burst ability that's generally predictable. And even then, the case could be made if the death was due to not being 100% health as BigBadBossAbility lands, that even if SS did absorb some of that damage, EF would have further safeguarded you against that hit being fatal or not (generally).


Just my thoughts on the topic, and I realize some of it is probably not explained as eloquently as it could be ^_^.
Xfighter
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:05 pm

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:08 am

Naturally, Avoiding damage is better than Healing it. You can avoid someone from going below 1 hp, but you cannot heal someone back up from below 1 hp.

However, the size of the Avoidance/Healing matters here. Sure, with massive absorbs/heals, the absorbs will win, since they can save a life. If I could glyph LoH so it would be a shield for half my HP rather than a heal for my full HP, I would!

However, SS is not that lifesaving absorb that saves you from instant death. It's more of an over time effect that keeps your overall damage somewhat lower.

Let's assume SS is between 3 and 4.5 seconds. It will affect at least every 3rd hit, and thus make strings of 3 attacks less dangerous. It might from time to time make strings of 2 attacks less dangerous, but since there will be lots of strings of 2 attacks not covered by SS, we can't count on it there. Ergo, we get at least one SS absorb for every 3 attacks.

I haven't studied into EF yet, but from the comments up here, EF seems to tick twice as often as SS does. That means that if SS ticks between 3 and 4.5 seconds, EF will tick between 1.5 and 2.25 seconds. Thus, it will tick after at least every 2nd hit. It wil therefor make strings of 3 attacks less dangerous, as there will always be a tick between the first and third attack. It might from time to time make strings of 2 attacks less dangerous, but since there will be lots of strings of 2 attacks without a tick in between, we can't count on it there.

Ergo, with SS between 3 and 4.5 seconds and EF between 1.5 and 2.25 seconds, they both apply to strings of 3 attacks. If EF ticks for at least as much as SS absorbs, then it doesn't matter too much that SS is an absorb, and EF is not.

If SS ticks less than every 3 seconds, it will apply to strings of 2 attacks, but EF will tick less than every 1.5 second, so it will tick in between every 2 attacks, so more haste has no effect.

If SS ticks between 4.5 and 6 seconds, it will apply to strings of 4 attacks, while EF ticks between 2.25 and 3 seconds will still tick in between every 3 attacks, so less haste makes it even better for EF.



I'm just talking about SS vs EF here. I'm not too worried about the loss of BoG, as even with 0 BoG, a 3 HoPo WoG heals for a truck on decent vengeance levels. However, without 4 piece T16, I'm not sure I want to drop SotR to keep EF up... It hadn't clicked in my mind yet that 4 piece T16 would remove this opportunity cost.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1233
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Jackinthegreen » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:11 am

EF and SS do not scale with haste at the same rate. EF gets its first extra tick at 5% haste, then each additional tick is another 10%. SS's first haste tick is at 10%, and each additional is another 20%.

Theck did the original spreadsheet of that on his blog, and I asked if I could update it for Holy use. He said yes, so here's the spreadsheet simply copied from an excel file on my computer:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... CMWc#gid=0
Jackinthegreen
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:22 pm

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:24 am

Thels wrote:Ergo, with SS between 3 and 4.5 seconds and EF between 1.5 and 2.25 seconds, they both apply to strings of 3 attacks. If EF ticks for at least as much as SS absorbs, then it doesn't matter too much that SS is an absorb, and EF is not.

If SS ticks less than every 3 seconds, it will apply to strings of 2 attacks, but EF will tick less than every 1.5 second, so it will tick in between every 2 attacks, so more haste has no effect.

If SS ticks between 4.5 and 6 seconds, it will apply to strings of 4 attacks, while EF ticks between 2.25 and 3 seconds will still tick in between every 3 attacks, so less haste makes it even better for EF.


Unless I'm missing something I don't think this logic is fully correct (if we're just talking about boss melee here). Let's say a boss has a 1.5s swing timer, which is most common.
At 3s SS absorbs it covers every 2nd swing, the equivalent EF ticks cover every single hit.
At 4.5s SS it's every 3rd swing with EF covering every 2nd basically.
Seems to me EF indeed has more coverage than SS due to it ticking twice as often, which is one of its perks.

Also fwiw, I'm sure we all know there's barely any bosses where you just sit there and tank melees. In between all the melee hits there is spell damage/bleeds/aoe/DoTs etc peppered all over constantly damaging you too (which for me strengthens the EF argument as is lowers overheal a lot).
So while I do agree there are certain haste breakpoints where it won't help for melee purposes to get more haste in one, or drop some haste etc, in reality the more ticking the better due to the constant damage stream.

Jackinthegreen wrote:EF and SS do not scale with haste at the same rate. EF gets its first extra tick at 5% haste, then each additional tick is another 10%. SS's first haste tick is at 10%, and each additional is another 20%.

Theck did the original spreadsheet of that on his blog, and I asked if I could update it for Holy use. He said yes, so here's the spreadsheet simply copied from an excel file on my computer:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... CMWc#gid=0


Good to have, but essentially the relative scaling is the same, which makes sense, since you get 2 ticks for SS absorb, and that's what's happening here. 20% spell haste = 1 absorb or 2 EF ticks, much like how they function regularly. Good spreadsheet to have!
Image
User avatar
Slootbag
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:07 am

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Agamemnan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:25 pm

Just to add in on an item that hasn't been discussed: I'm very interested about the change to Sanctified Wrath. Been a big fan of DP, but SW buffs are going to make it a strong contender.

30 Second Duration buff for: 20% increased healing, increased HP generation that lasts an additional 12 seconds longer than HA, and you get to control WHEN you get the extra HP and Healing vs DP. So it will help for Physical and Magical damage. Disadvantage is the 3 min CD. So DP will be default, but might be a few fights to leverage this on. I plan on trying it out.

We also have flexibility with Devotion Aura for a more frequent personal magic CD or the raid CD.

I plan on utilizing EF when I get the 4 pc. It's off the GCD, provides a very strong HOT and you also can't ignore the initial heal. Sure absorbs are great, but having a much more powerful HOT that ticks more frequently is tantalizing. Bastion Stacks won't be an issue with haste
Agamemnan
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:04 pm

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Diceone » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:15 pm

I'm going to miss you sacred shield, and I hate that sloot basically put up all the compelling arguments against it.

I'd like to just highlight his points about our health pools and how they're going to interact with the two talent choices.

We're going to have 1m+ health going into heroic modes here, assuming all appropriate raid buffs and a smart shaman to keep you up there (might not always happen but a fine assumption). Most of the bosses don't hit for more than 350k, and even in H25 I can't imagine bosses hitting for more than 500k. Testing hasn't happened on the later ones, which are generally speaking the more important ones imo thanks to tuning.

Lets say we do get hit for 500k per swing, there's the points already mentioned but if we're looking at the absolute most dangerous cases then we want to be aware of the tick frequency. We already talked about 1-2-3 etc attack strings but I'm not sure this is entirely the direction to go when looking at events that can kill us. our first job as a tank is to not die so looking at times we can die will be pretty valuable.

Since our haste values wont line up exactly with swing timers we're going to have an interesting situation where we get a SS refresh the exact moment before a really big swing comes in, after SS that brings it down to say 350k (starting at 500k) if you include various absorbes from other healers and you feel like rounding. The boss swing timer is significantly shorter than your SS refresh timer. You're next hit wont benefit from SS.

Looking at the other side of the fence with EF and a <2s tick frequency with our 50+% haste the dangerous cases are going to have a swing speed slower than 2s. Aoe situations wont matter just because of the way damage is coming in but single large hits will. Important window for this is swings coming in at 2-4 seconds. Lets say your EF tick is completely wasted right before a big hit comes in, you still get the larger EH buffer from the larger heal value due to EF ticking before the next hit.

No matter the situation the worst case of EF comes out better than the best case from SS. The only situation where the absorb is better is effects that would otherwise kill you. Our health pools are so large that absorbs are becoming largely just a more efficient way of healing by preventing overheal. To reiterate, with our incredibly large health pools I'm more skeptical of the argument of absorb better than shield. There's mechanically no difference when you're usually not in danger.

The two questions or concerns I have with this are the extremely dangerous situations where you are out of range of your healers or they are dead for whatever reason, does a new EF cast with lower vengeance/HoPo/BoG rewrite the hot? This is where I see sacred shield being the strongest and it's not that rare of an event in my experience, especially when getting particularly close to a kill.

Second question is how viable is it to run without the 4p. The loss of BoG stacks is unfortunate for emergency situations which is where I get concerned, but my 100-0 is rarely something that an extra few stacks of BoG would save. I realise it's strictly a HoPo loss but it's not a loss in control of your holy power just the total amount left if you're careful with it baring any prolonged downtime in generation thanks to either no mobs to hit like lei shen intermissions.
Sholdice of [H] Static on US-Arthas
Diceone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:14 pm

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:38 pm

Currently on ptr you can overwrite a 3 HoPo 5 BoG EF with a much weaker 1 HoPo EF :/

I'm not totally convinced by the "we have massive hp so EF is stronger" argument, I'm expecting Blizz to tune up how hard the bosses hit and how nasty the tank debuffs are.
With the legendary meta and cloak it just feels like they have to ramp up tank dmg intake if they don't want us to be nigh on invincible.
Just to be clear I'll most likely be using EF on some fights, just don't think the "massive hp" argument holds up that well at least until we see the final raid tuning.
Last edited by daishan on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:29 am

Slootbag wrote:
Thels wrote:Ergo, with SS between 3 and 4.5 seconds and EF between 1.5 and 2.25 seconds, they both apply to strings of 3 attacks. If EF ticks for at least as much as SS absorbs, then it doesn't matter too much that SS is an absorb, and EF is not.

If SS ticks less than every 3 seconds, it will apply to strings of 2 attacks, but EF will tick less than every 1.5 second, so it will tick in between every 2 attacks, so more haste has no effect.

If SS ticks between 4.5 and 6 seconds, it will apply to strings of 4 attacks, while EF ticks between 2.25 and 3 seconds will still tick in between every 3 attacks, so less haste makes it even better for EF.


Unless I'm missing something I don't think this logic is fully correct (if we're just talking about boss melee here). Let's say a boss has a 1.5s swing timer, which is most common.
At 3s SS absorbs it covers every 2nd swing, the equivalent EF ticks cover every single hit.
At 4.5s SS it's every 3rd swing with EF covering every 2nd basically.
Seems to me EF indeed has more coverage than SS due to it ticking twice as often, which is one of its perks.


I was looking where EF could save our lives and SS could not. Say a chain of 3 hits from the boss would kill you. For SS to prevent that, it needs to tick before the first hit, or in between the first and second hit, or in between the second and third hit. For EF to prevent that, it needs to tick in between the first and second hit, or in between the second and third hit. Ticking before the first hit will not help us at all, whereas SS would help us. The advantage of the absorb.

If both SS and EF would tick between every 3 and 4.5 seconds, we could always rely on SS breaking a chain of 3 hits, whereas we could not rely on EF to do the same, as it could tick before the first and then again after the third, which means we ate 3 attacks in a row.

However, since EF ticks more often, that is not a problem, as we can always rely on it ticking between the first and second hit, or between the second and third hit. So EF will always reduce a chain of 3 attacks as well.

Naturally, if they can assist on death prevention for attack strings of the same length, then EF's total output makes it the better choice.



Jackinthegreen wrote:EF and SS do not scale with haste at the same rate. EF gets its first extra tick at 5% haste, then each additional tick is another 10%. SS's first haste tick is at 10%, and each additional is another 20%.

Theck did the original spreadsheet of that on his blog, and I asked if I could update it for Holy use. He said yes, so here's the spreadsheet simply copied from an excel file on my computer:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... CMWc#gid=0


You're talking about effectiveness per cast here, which, while interesting, is not something tanks care about. We will always refresh the spell before it has fallen off, so it doesn't really matter if every cast gives one tick more or less. Only the frequency of ticks really matters.



Agamemnan wrote:Just to add in on an item that hasn't been discussed: I'm very interested about the change to Sanctified Wrath. Been a big fan of DP, but SW buffs are going to make it a strong contender.

30 Second Duration buff for: 20% increased healing, increased HP generation that lasts an additional 12 seconds longer than HA, and you get to control WHEN you get the extra HP and Healing vs DP. So it will help for Physical and Magical damage. Disadvantage is the 3 min CD. So DP will be default, but might be a few fights to leverage this on. I plan on trying it out.


Since when was DP the default, really? I think it was a bit of an arms up between DP and HA.

With the buff to SW, SW now provides as much HoPo output per cast as HA. HA has a lower cooldown, so HA still provides a higher HoPo output per minute, but lacks the 20% healing received from SW. Note that you need at least 20% Haste for SW to grant 100% uptime of SotR while active, so SW sucks for Challenge Modes, and probably Proving Grounds too.



Final thing about overhealing. Sure, EF is probably going to cause some overhealing, but that's only when we're at 100% health, so we'll be fine there regardless. SS might not cause us to overheal, but since we're bound to get a couple of hots on us, it would make our healers overheal instead, so that point is pretty moot.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1233
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:43 am

the on thing that bugs me here Dicone is that 500k intake is pretty unrealistic. but it doesn't need that much. Now if I really understood what Slootbag was trying to explain I can pack this into an example.

with this high haste values your SoTR uptime is pretty high (about >60%). Your Tank meta gem proccs for ~65% uptime in 5.4 and gives you a reduce of 20 ON EVERYTHING. your DP CD can be reduced to 25s

let's take Slootbags example form above.

At 250k vengeance (typical 25 man vengeance, give or take a bit with the new Vengeance nerfs but harder hitting bosses), we get a 102k SS absorb every 4 seconds, or we can get a 164k EF tick every 2 seconds, which can also crit


250k vengeance average would mean the Boss melees pre-mitigation with about 694k (as vengeance averages out at about 36%)

let's round up to make it easier and say 700k meleehits pre-mitigation on a 1.5s swingtimer.

now our armor at current gear ToT HM gear reduces about 58% of that.

so even with NOTHING up and turning our back to the boss we get hit for only ~294k

SS: 294k-102k=192k hit
EF: 294k hit. healed up by 164k, being a relative to a 130k hit

although yes the SS absorb is fully used and the next hit won't have this 102k absorb. so the only real difference I see here is tickrate. AND the fact that you really have to take the damage with EF every single time. but EF ticks after every hit where as SS absorbs only every second.

Now from a healer perspective. And let’s say. Considering 5.4 gear you are at 1 Mio HP. This looks like this in 1.5s intervals:

294k = 29.4% of our health.
192k=19.2% of our health

SS:
Code: Select all
------SS----_______-----SS----______----SS----
100% -- 80.8% -- 51.4% -- 32.2% -- 2.8% -- dead


So we drop pretty linear. Leaves us with 4 hits we survive without any heals, CDs or nothing but SS doing it’s Job. Looking at those 294 it is almost a third of our HP pool. So we would survive 3 hits without heals, meaning our healers have 4.5 seconds to heal us. SS extends this by one hit so 6s

EF (heals 16.4%):
Code: Select all
100% -- 70.6% -> 87% -- 57.6% -> 74% -- 44.6% -> 61% -- 31.6% -> 48% -- 18.6 -> 35% -- 5.6% -> 22% -- dead


We get 6hits before we die! This could almost be compared in a doubled EH if you want do be abstract. But the real dead is that it gives our healers a full 9s to react.

With SoTR up this looks a bit different.

With 50% reduction through SoTR. The incoming hit would be only 147k

now:

SS: 147k-102k=45k
EF: 147k hit. healed up by 164k brings us back to full health. yews there is overheal. but we are forgetting something. overheal is only relevant if it costs ressources. overheal from "Free" heals isn't bad!

SoTR is atm at about 60% uptime. letting us reduce almost 2 out of 3 hits.

But applying our model with SotR reduce 2 out of 3 hits. And working with double SoTR giving us every 3rd swing without SoTR.
It looks like this:

147k = 14.7% of our HP
45k = 4.5% of our HP

SS:
Code: Select all
---------SOTR--------______---------SOTR---------_______------SOTR------
-------SS--________-----SS--_________----SS----______----SS----_____
100% -- 95.5% -- 80.8% -- 61.6% -- 46.9% -- 42.4% -- 13% -- 8.5% -- DEAD


Leaving us with 7 hits before we die. Giving our healers 10.5s reaction time. (behold the power of SOTR)

EF:
Code: Select all
---------SOTR-----------------------_________------- --------- SOTR ---------------___________------- --------- SOTR---------------_________________------------
100% -- 85.3% -> 100% -- 85.3% -> 100% -- 70.6% -> 87% -- 72.3% -> 88.7% -- 74% -> 90.4% -- 61% -> 77.4% -- 62.7% -> 79.1% -- 64.4% -> 80.8% -- 51.4% -> 67.8% --
SOTR--
53.1% -> 69.5%    AND SO ON.



Now, in 5.4 we also have about 65% uptime on the metaprocc reducing every damage by 20% also being active for about 2 out of 3 hits. Making EF even better. So I guess the logic is. As 1 EF tick heals more then the Boss swings us for with SOTR up it makes us almost selfsustaining. With 100% SOTR uptime we wouldn’t even need a healer fort hat kind of Boss (considering only melee swings)

If my math here is correct (and I am a Math N00b so It can be pretty much fail from the top to the end) this make EF not even better, but OP!

There also seem to be different breakpoints. The point of Damage a Boss has to do to absorb SS fully with one hit. As well as the point where he hits so hard that one EF tick isn’t stronger than the hit with SoTR up. (considering the Vengeance scaling of both abilities this would make an amazing blogpost I would love to read on sacred duty ^^)
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:59 am

Schroom wrote:
At 250k vengeance (typical 25 man vengeance, give or take a bit with the new Vengeance nerfs but harder hitting bosses), we get a 102k SS absorb every 4 seconds, or we can get a 164k EF tick every 2 seconds, which can also crit


250k vengeance average would mean the Boss melees pre-mitigation with about 694k (as vengeance averages out at about 36%)


My only beef here, as usual with a lot of models, is you can't fully replicate a lot of raiding environments. Of that 250k vengeance gain, rarely is it ever actually from just the boss melee alone. There's obviously a plethora of factors, including magic damage, that contribute to the vengeance gain, making SotR not always a good metric for comparison and analysis.

Regardless, the point is illustrated well!
Image
User avatar
Slootbag
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:07 am

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:07 am

og course. but with the tools at my disposal (which is a piece of paper, a pen and a calculator) I can't possibly consider all singel possibility. so I have to do it as simple as possible.

I also didn't consider the meta or other cooldowns. special attacks are usualy dealth with accordingly. it was more about getting an impression how powerfull EF really seems to be.

my only question is if this is really correct by numbers? it would make EF OP in my eyes. Nerf is showing on the Horizon.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:00 am

It's really strong, IF you have the T16 4 piece bonus. Without it, the HoPo cost tunes it down a few notches.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1233
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Kiea » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:52 am

Hey, new here but I wanted to add something to the EF topic, with 250.000 AP it will heal for 172k every tick (with 30% mastery, giving a total increase of 150% from BoG).

Another addition to EF is that when you use AW, if you pop it right before you cast an EF with 5 stacks of BoG it will do 209k per tick, and you can refresh you get a couple DP procs by the end of it with another 5 stack EF, so you have a total of 50 seconds of 209k per tick.

Additionally we have the direct part of EF, which will heal for 523k, averaging at 18k HPS, of course this has potential to overheal most of the time if you want the HoT component to be active unless you know a big hit is going to be coming within 3-4 seconds, since 3 ticks of EF will be the same as the initial heal itself

Ontop of EF there is also SoI healing which I don't have math on and the T16 2-piece bonus, which can be anywhere between 13000-30000k HPS, just looking at some ToT logs and the damage taken from tanks, however this is average damage taken, lining it up for big hit phases would result in more HPS.

I haven't done any testing on PTR raids myself since I don't do the hardcore raiding no more, but if this is true Prot paladins have some seriously insane self healing, not sure how well the other tanks are looking, I know prot warriors are looking to get some pretty good self heals as well.

Oh, and all parts of EH can also crit which can help but it's random and can result in a lot of overhealing since you can't play expecting a crit when you have less than 15% crit chance.
Kiea
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:31 am
Location: Denmark

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:43 am

If I use EF. I think I will switch my weapon enchant to windsong as well.

EF benefits from all 3 Proccs.

and windsong is generally considered a DPS gain anyway at about 150k vengeance. (if I remember correctly)
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:13 am

Kiea wrote:Additionally we have the direct part of EF, which will heal for 523k, averaging at 18k HPS, of course this has potential to overheal most of the time if you want the HoT component to be active unless you know a big hit is going to be coming within 3-4 seconds, since 3 ticks of EF will be the same as the initial heal itself


This is actually a benefit of SS, not EF.

The direct part is WoG itself, which SS also has. With EF, we actually cycle it into our rotation, whereas with SS we still have it available to cast when need be.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1233
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:26 am

Schroom wrote:my only question is if this is really correct by numbers? it would make EF OP in my eyes. Nerf is showing on the Horizon.


I really don't think it's that OP, there's just finally a competitive, if not better choice for SS which was always king until now, and that I think gives the illusion that it's OP. It's very strong sure, but I don't see it getting a nerf. SS was nerfed for a reason as was EF buffed.

Kiea wrote:Hey, new here but I wanted to add something to the EF topic, with 250.000 AP it will heal for 172k every tick (with 30% mastery, giving a total increase of 150% from BoG).


Hello! Just a note, BoG has a base 10%, so a mastery of 30% would actually see BoG at 40% per stack going to 200%, not 30%. That obviously increases that tick number even higher!

Schroom wrote:If I use EF. I think I will switch my weapon enchant to windsong as well.

EF benefits from all 3 Proccs.

and windsong is generally considered a DPS gain anyway at about 150k vengeance. (if I remember correctly)


I think the middle ground for DS vs WS was 150-170k. So anything beyond 170k for sure. But if using EF you get further benefit from Windsong so that number is indeed probably lower as a benefit breakpoint.
Image
User avatar
Slootbag
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:07 am

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest