5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

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5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:52 am

Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).


guess this brings this post by theck back to relevance, and obviously devalues haste :(
consequently, i do not expect T16 to have any amount of haste on it.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sturrm » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:22 am

Im new here, but three things:

1. Yes, it will devalue haste... but with 5.4 gear letting us reach 50% haste, I doubt itll be an issue.

2. If they are once again pushing paladins to Dodge/Parry, they should add the buff they gave warriors and DKs, to make our DPS competitive.
Riposte is a new passive ability learned by Protection Warriors at level 76. When the Warrior dodges or parries any attack, they gain 50% of their Parry and Dodge as an additional bonus to Critical Strike for 20 seconds.



3. Might not be the thread to discuss this, but... what does the change to Seal of Insight and Glyph of Battle Healer mean to us?

General
Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks.
Glyphs
Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:37 am

the mana change is irrelevant for us, the only time we actually need mana is to ressurect people.
the Battle Healer redesign now causes us to lose survivability when we use the glyph for some mediocre raidheals, so it went from OP in 5.0 to meh in 5.2 to actively bad in 5.4. we are kinda running out of useful major glphs tbh.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:52 am

Alrinea wrote:the mana change is irrelevant for us, the only time we actually need mana is to ressurect people.


Sure about that?

At high haste levels we'll run oom very fast even without using taunts, interrupts, DP, hand spells ect.
I'm at 46% haste and switching to SoT runs me oom in 30-40sec doing a normal rotation, I think even at 0% haste we'd run oom in under 90 sec if we're doing more than just our standard rotation.
Last edited by daishan on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sturrm » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:53 am

How is it mediocre in 5.2? I solo tank Iron Qon in Heroic and end up healing almost as much as our other healers. Same for Heroic Tortos. Yes, going from 30% of damage dealt to 20% of damage dealt was bad... but its still quite powerful, unless im missing something.

Right now, Glyph of the Battle healer is:
Using melee attacks while using Seal of Insight heals a nearby injured friendly target, excluding the Paladin, within 30 yards for 20% of damage dealt.


The redesign seems to just make it smarter?
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:57 am

Sturrm wrote:The redesign seems to just make it smarter?


Not really.

On live we get self healing from SoI PLUS raid healing with BH.
The PTR removes the 20% of melee dmg is converted to raid healing.
Instead SoI procs either heal us when we don't have BH glyph or heal everyone EXCEPT us when we use the glyph.

Edit:

Alrinea is kind of right about the current BH raid healing been mostly mediocre except for a few fights like Tortos HM (very little over heal), Last phase of Iron Qon , and Ra-Den.
I think the new version could be very strong raid healing if we can afford the personal survivability loss, because SoI procs at least for me tend to do 3 times as much raw healing as the current BH does.

Having said that it'll be very situational if it goes live how it is, I can't really think of a fight in ToT where I'd of been comfortable loosing personal survivability even for the quite strong SoI raid healing during prog.
Last edited by daishan on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:07 am

was just on a target dummy, lost about 10% my mana over 70s with standard rotation at 33% haste. 7% of that would be mitigated by replenishment in a raid. so not sure its as big of a problem at medium haste levels, cant say much about 50% haste as i only have 4 items with haste on them currently.
but yeah, hadnt expected this to actually be the case, if blizz makes high haste levels not sustainable i'll be pretty upset tbh.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sturrm » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:15 am

daishan wrote:
Sturrm wrote:The redesign seems to just make it smarter?


Not really.

On live we get self healing from SoI PLUS raid healing with BH.
The PTR removes the 20% of melee dmg is converted to raid healing.
Instead SoI procs either heal us when we don't have BH glyph or heal everyone EXCEPT us when we use the glyph.

Edit:

Alrinea is kind of right about the current BH raid healing been mostly mediocre except for a few fights like Tortos HM (very little over heal), Last phase of Iron Qon , and Ra-Den.
I think the new version could be very strong raid healing if we can afford the personal survivability loss, because SoI procs at least for me tend to do 3 times as much raw healing as the current BH does.

Having said that it'll be very situational if it goes live how it is, I can't really think of a fight in ToT where I'd of been comfortable loosing personal survivability even for the quite strong SoI raid healing during prog.



What Glyph or Seal do you use that gives you more survivability? I dont see how/when we lose personal survivability by currently going with SOI + Glyph of the Battle Healer.
Last edited by Sturrm on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby lifeonmars » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:16 am

Alrinea wrote:was just on a target dummy, lost about 10% my mana over 70s with standard rotation at 33% haste. 7% of that would be mitigated by replenishment in a raid. so not sure its as big of a problem at medium haste levels, cant say much about 50% haste as i only have 4 items with haste on them currently.
but yeah, hadnt expected this to actually be the case, if blizz makes high haste levels not sustainable i'll be pretty upset tbh.


Replenishment doesn't exist anymore.

I have a hard time imagining that the SoI change is actually an indirect nerf to make haste builds non-viable, because that's way too subtle for their track record, and even non-haste pally tanks are not going to want to use Rebuke anymore because they'll never recover from it. Also, the AS from GC is not free, so the SoI change potentially could even oom all those nice avoidance-stacking paladins out there (all zero of them playing serious content!).
Last edited by lifeonmars on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:22 am

Sturrm wrote:What Glyph or Seal do you use that gives you more survivability? I dont see how/when we lose personal survivability by currently going with SOI + Glyph of the Battle Healer.


Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin.

I was trying to point out how the new glyph doesn't just make it smarter but stops SoI from healing the tank.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:26 am

Sturrm wrote:What Glyph or Seal do you use that gives you more survivability? I dont see how/when we lose personal survivability by currently going with SOI + Glyph of the Battle Healer.


It's not another Glyph, it's the Glyph itself nerfing our survivability.

Right now, SoI heals yourself. BH heals others, in addition to the selfheals, so it's free extra healing. The 5.4 Glyph will redirect the SoI heal to others, so you'll heal others instead of yourself.

What I wonder is, will you still heal yourself with SoI+BH, if you yourself are most in need of that heal? If that's the case, I might still consider running it. If it will never heal myself anymore, then it'll get replaced for sure.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:39 am

Thels wrote:What I wonder is, will you still heal yourself with SoI+BH, if you yourself are most in need of that heal? If that's the case, I might still consider running it. If it will never heal myself anymore, then it'll get replaced for sure.


That's a good point I was just assuming it wouldn't heal us but i guess it could mean either.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:32 am

The "instead" implies it will never target the paladin.

I am torn. On the one hand, yay smartheals. On the other hand, no self healing? What the fuck?!
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:50 am

Sturrm wrote:2. If they are once again pushing paladins to Dodge/Parry, they should add the buff they gave warriors and DKs, to make our DPS competitive.


Only evidence of tank DPS I see is that 1) Brewmasters do too much and 2) Warriors and DKs do too little. Don't see anything that Paladins are in anyway bad at tank DPS.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Promdates » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:06 pm

Sounds good then, since they're nerfing Keg Smash by 18%.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:20 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:The "instead" implies it will never target the paladin.


Myeah, that could be read in several ways. Instead of always healing the paladin, it will heal whoever most requires it.

Either way, we shouldn't blindly believe the tooltip, but test it. If it still affects the paladin if so required, it might actually be a good glyph. If it doesn't, then I don't think many will keep it.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:08 pm

Until we get on PTR and test some of these things, it's a bit premature to make any concrete statements. My guess is that GoBH is gone as a heroic content glyph though.

As far as Grand Crusader and haste, I don't think this will devalue haste enough to make it worse than anything else (nor should it buff dodge/parry enough to push them ahead of anything else). It's probably just a simple way to weaken haste slightly and buff dodge/parry slightly to round out this final tier. Sort of a "we know you're going to have some of these stats on gear, so we'll try and make them a little more useful to you."
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Schroom » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:55 pm

the thing I don't get, they tried out this change of GC already on the 5.3 PTR and reverted it to the actual state, because it wasn't good. I mean, no GC proccs while offtanking? *Zzzzzzzzz*

the fact that the change to SoI would give us Mana problems regardless if we go haste or avoidance, is quite of concerning, but if that's true it is just broken. and we would need a Buff to "guarded by the light" to compensate for it.

also I am not quite sure GoBH would be a nono for HM content. If I check my logs, the SoI selfheal ticks are less then Battle healer heals, and only about 30% bigger. But, SoI is about 70% overhealing, whereas Battle healer is only 20%.

I guess it will highly depend on the fight. and needs communication with your healers if they want it, and what the price is.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:51 am

Schroom wrote:the thing I don't get, they tried out this change of GC already on the 5.3 PTR and reverted it to the actual state, because it wasn't good. I mean, no GC proccs while offtanking? *Zzzzzzzzz*

They tried this in 5.3 PTR yes, but it was simply to big of a change going from only proccing on CS/Hammer, to only dodge/parry, atleast now its a small one (cmon 12% chance to procc in the beginning isnt much)
Who cares about no GC proccs when not tanking? you dont need the Holy power anyway, and odds are your Vengeance is to low to be doing any real DPS anyway.

Schroom wrote:the fact that the change to SoI would give us Mana problems regardless if we go haste or avoidance, is quite of concerning, but if that's true it is just broken. and we would need a Buff to "guarded by the light" to compensate for it.

I dont understand how people are freaking out on this...
This is CLEARLY a holy paladin change that isnt suppose to change protpaladins, their intent is NOT to make protpallys only usefull the first 30sec of the fight and then completely useless, to remove all protpaladins from the game.
Its not a big issue, we never ran into mana problems in the beginning of MoP when we were using SoT, Rets doesnt run into mana issues and they dont use SoI to regen mana back.
Get real, its not going to be an issue, and if it will, they will for sure bugg guarded by the light to compensate.



Schroom wrote:also I am not quite sure GoBH would be a nono for HM content. If I check my logs, the SoI selfheal ticks are less then Battle healer heals, and only about 30% bigger. But, SoI is about 70% overhealing, whereas Battle healer is only 20%.

I guess it will highly depend on the fight. and needs communication with your healers if they want it, and what the price is.

I agree here unlike Theck, but its simply just going to dependon the fights.
Saying its gone for heroic content is a bit to harsh, but It will likely not be a glyph we start out with, but rather swap into if raidhealing is harsh while tank healing isnt.
What it will likely do is that it will focus more attention on the tank than the raid from one healer (the days of having 2 of your healing team focus on the tank alone is pretty gone) and that sort of works against the glyph i guess since he is doing more tank healing than raid healing, that said depending on the class, that could end up pretty ok.
I like this glyph more tho, the current version is to brainless and mandatory to be using, this version will be interesting, and we have far less interesting glyphs that we should complain about first anyway :P
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Schroom » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:37 am

Treck wrote:I dont understand how people are freaking out on this...


I couldn't test it myself yet. I am just referring to Daishans post earlier in this thread, where he claims going oom after about 30 seconds.... IF (and only IF) that is really the case, it will be concern, a big one.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby pvita » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:38 am

I do not expect mana problems, but on the second side it would be nice if mana was a real resource again. We just watch pool of 5 HoPos now, mana bar is totally irrelevant. Devs should look into it and make both mana and HoPos relevant in rotation.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:47 am

Schroom wrote:
Treck wrote:I dont understand how people are freaking out on this...


I couldn't test it myself yet. I am just referring to Daishans post earlier in this thread, where he claims going oom after about 30 seconds.... IF (and only IF) that is really the case, it will be concern, a big one.

The math was a little wrong and it's actually 4-5 minutes until oom... but the blues have said they're increasing GBTL to 10% mana regen.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby pvita » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:16 am

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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:29 am

and the next post, which is just as important

EDIT: Also, just dared to try and read the non-Lore posts.

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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:32 am

Ye mana won't be an issue now they're buffing GBTL.

I was maybe exaggerating a little when I said 30-40 sec but I've no idea how you can keep your rotation up for 4-5 min with 40% or more haste, don't forget AS is one of our biggest cost spells so a string of GC procs while add tanking a taunt or 2 and we'd of been going oom pretty fast.

I really can't decide about the BH glyph if it never heals the pally even if they're the lowest health player in range I think it'll be very situational, as most of the fights in ToT at least, where I would of been tempted to use such a glyph have a heavy tank dmg phase.
If it heals the lowest health player including the tank it could be tempting on several fights but even then if I understand Thecks blogs correctly SoI procs even when they happen while we're at higher hp help to reduce spikes a fair bit.

Has anyone gone on the ptr yet to check which way BH works now?
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