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50% Haste

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50% Haste

Postby Thels » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:54 am

I've been mulling with the idea after Gab's post in the Gear thread:

Gab wrote:
Gruck wrote:True. Of course, for control/haste build, if there is an exp. or hit bonus, go get it. I was referring to things like parry or avoidance, which is not worth getting.


Even dodge/parry/mastery/stam (and crit on belt) bonuses are worth picking up with a haste/hit or haste/exp gem in almost all cases. It's still "free" stats as long as you are able to reforge down to hit/exp caps.

The only exceptions would be if you are at a point where you are over hit/exp caps and unable to reforge enough of it away or where you have sub optimal reforges such as having to reforge smaller amounts of hit/exp instead of larger amounts of dodge/parry to get down closer to the caps. I'm at 535 and still not at either of those points but YMMV depending on what you're wearing.

Edit Quick re-gem/re-forge Full haste vs current set up of hitting bonuses:

Full haste:
+620 haste

-120 crit
-120 dodge
-300 parry
-360 strength
-780 mastery

Wanted to double check after making that statement. Guess I was mistaken... Although still a worthwhile trade off imo considering I'm already at a 1 second GCD raid buffed. At lower gear levels it's probably an even bigger benefit considering the initial difficulty in reaching both hit and especially exp cap. Really hinges on current gear though, should be a case by case basis.

Armory link for reference, although I did the regemming/reforging on AMR with Ji-Kun's Rising Wind (522) instead of Dark Mist Vortex and 530 tier shoulders instead of 543 tier shoulders.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/bleeding-hollow/Gabbed/advanced


What DO we do when we reach 50% Haste? Is it anywhere worthwhile to continue down the Haste route?

Let's keep in mind that someone with so much Haste is going into Haste for the extra DPS it provides. Stamina is a better option for survivability, so the increase in Haste beyond 50% needs to provide a continued increase in DPS to still make it worthwhile.

SoI procs and SS refreshes (the shield, not the main buff) of course continue to increase, but these are survival perks, and thus not the reason to stack it over Stamina.

The cooldown of our abilities continue to decrease, but this doesn't seem to matter much, as we're stuck with a 1 second GCD. Our rotation will remain CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X-. We could drop fillers to press our HoPo generators more often, but that would be a net loss in DPS, again turning it into a survival stat, where Haste is not king.

So our DPS increases are:

More auto-attacks.
Able to press our stronger fillers more often.

These seem to be a very marginal gain in DPS, making me wonder if we aren't better off with a mixture of Stamina and our next-best DPS stat.



Note that once we get close to 100% Haste, the rotation changes to J-CS-X-, which would lead to additional DPS, as well as a near 100% uptime of ShoR. (If we keep HA on CD, we need 8 GC procs per minute for a 100% ShoR uptime.) At 125% Haste, the rotation changes to CS-J-CS-X-, which would lead to a practical 100% uptime of ShoR. (If we keep HA on CD, we need 1 GC proc per minute for a 100% ShoR uptime.) But it's a pretty big gap from 50% to 100%, so this is not in any way a realistic thought.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:36 am

Short answer is "no." Most of it is summarized in this blog post, though there are no simulation results there to support the conclusions.

Once you reach 50% haste, haste should drop behind strength and crit for raw DPS, because you're no longer doing things faster (i.e. scaling the rotation), you're just increasing dead time (between 50% and 100%) or shuffling the rotation around. And as you noted, the rotation changes we see aren't going to be that helpful for DPS since the percentage of GCDs "wasted" on CS will be a lot higher.

For DPS, you'd want to stack haste to 50%, then strength or crit depending on how much Vengeance you expect.
For survivability, you'd obviously use stamina.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Promdates » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:40 am

I'm currently sitting around 17.6k-18k haste. Unless haste is all over a lot of viable items in the next tier, I don't know if I can make it to 21,250. Perhaps we'll see, I'm not even in HTF gear.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Gab » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:25 am

Yeah I was mistaken... I thought melee haste through+ SoB reduced ability cooldown and spell haste haste reduced GCD. But I got my paths crossed somehwere, because SoB reduces both through melee haste.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Promdates » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:57 am

Granted, with the 17646 haste I have with consumables, I sit around 1.059s GCD. It really makes Bloodlust terrible to deal with.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Thels » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:52 pm

theckhd wrote:Short answer is "no." Most of it is summarized in this blog post, though there are no simulation results there to support the conclusions.


That one was a while ago. I completely forgot about that one.

Either way, thanks for the update! :)

Promdates: That's pretty close. Out of curiosity, would you mind linking your armory page?
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Promdates » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:10 pm

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... s/advanced

I also use http://www.wowhead.com/item=76075 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=76078 for my consumables. (I might have been off by about 200 or so haste rating)

I could increase it to more by using haste on boots, but I'd rather the innate movement speed for the most part.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Thels » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:41 am

Gz on your HCTF Spark of Zandalar :)

Nice gear, though I'm a little confused about JC gems in chest and legs, when you're guaranteed to have a prismatic slot in wrists, gloves, belt and weapon. Not that it'll matter much.

And yeah, I used to run Haste on boots during T14, when I was running PoJ, but ToT made SoL too attractive.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Schroom » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:34 am

theckhd wrote:Short answer is "no." Most of it is summarized in this blog post, though there are no simulation results there to support the conclusions.

Once you reach 50% haste, haste should drop behind strength and crit for raw DPS, because you're no longer doing things faster (i.e. scaling the rotation), you're just increasing dead time (between 50% and 100%) or shuffling the rotation around. And as you noted, the rotation changes we see aren't going to be that helpful for DPS since the percentage of GCDs "wasted" on CS will be a lot higher.

For DPS, you'd want to stack haste to 50%, then strength or crit depending on how much Vengeance you expect.
For survivability, you'd obviously use stamina.



and for reforging I would say mastery after 50% haste. Trinkets stamina. then gems stamina (except if a boss would require mastery because of mechanics of course).without loosing 50% haste, would be the path while gearing up after reaching 50% I guess?
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Promdates » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:57 am

Thels wrote:confused about JC gems in chest and legs, when you're guaranteed to have a prismatic slot in wrists, gloves, belt and weapon. Not that it'll matter much.


I just didn't see any real issue to use them in prismatic slots, since I'm only using 2 green haste/hit gems. I'm not really going for the bonuses, so it didn't really make that much of a difference. It also provides me the opportunity to swap out certain items for my ret set (which is roughly half of my tanking set) without any issues.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Riemu » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:08 pm

I'm sitting at 16083 haste, thats 37.84% selfbuffed Melee Haste. With every Raidbuff online, thats about 52.84% Melee Haste (10% melee haste + 5% spell haste). Or does spell haste not reduce the GCD?

So, if its 52.84% raidbuffed, I should reforge for mastery instead of haste? I don't really have trouble surviving anything (10/13 10 man hc). So I'd rather not reforge for mastery. Dunno, I just love haste and dealing damage too much.

Does that mean I should go for crit instead of haste now? Haste still scales my healing with SoI though... At 70% haste I will get another sacred shield (9 instead of 8) procc. So I guess next content it will be possible and recommended to reach 70%? Thats about 20053 Haste which should be more than doable

Or is mastery/crit still better than haste if you can reach the 70% breakpoint?

EDIT: I'm totally confused now... what do I need to get to 50% raidbuffed? Melee Haste or Spell Haste? (In order to reduce the GCD to 1 Sec)
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby daishan » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:41 pm

Riemu wrote:I'm sitting at 16083 haste, thats 37.84% selfbuffed Melee Haste. With every Raidbuff online, thats about 52.84% Melee Haste (10% melee haste + 5% spell haste). Or does spell haste not reduce the GCD?


The 10% "Melee Haste" is actually 10% attack speed so that only effects your white hits, and spell haste doesn't affect Sanctity of Battle.

Meaning you're still a good way away from a 1 sec GCD, basically until you have 21244 self buffed melee haste you should keep stacking it(unless you're dying in which case go stam) :D
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Riemu » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:43 pm

Ahhhhhh ok thanks alot! I guess I never knew that one..
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Thels » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:13 pm

Riemu wrote:So, if its 52.84% raidbuffed, I should reforge for mastery instead of haste? I don't really have trouble surviving anything (10/13 10 man hc). So I'd rather not reforge for mastery. Dunno, I just love haste and dealing damage too much.

Haste still scales my healing with SoI though... At 70% haste I will get another sacred shield (9 instead of 8) procc. So I guess next content it will be possible and recommended to reach 70%? Thats about 20053 Haste which should be more than doable


As mentioned, raidbuffs don't affect Sanctity of Battle.

Also, remember that you are stacking haste for the extra DPS. Sure, Haste also increases SoI and Sacred Shield, but this survivability boost is less than Stamina could give you, even with the weaker gems. So there's really no point in continuing to stack haste past 50%.

If you rigorously want more DPS, and aren't afraid to drop in survivability, then go Strength in trinkets/enchants, and Crit in reforges/gems. If you rather prefer a little more survivability, go Stamina.
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Re: 50% Haste

Postby Hexzon » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:48 pm

50% haste point is one that's really interesting for me to look at from a 10 man heroic raiding view, obviously i'm only sitting at about 44% with a haste elixir my self atm, and that 6% ain't easy to make up and without some crazy luck on tf gear I probably won't reach it this tier, but of course it is possible this tier.

However come next tier with a few pieces it really shouldn't be to hard at all to make up that 50%, now if i was raiding 25man heroics then I'd just straight out go to stamina gems or maybe depending on the fight mastery, however on 10man its really putting me in a interesting place where I may consider the merits of stacking crit past that 50% haste next tier(Pretty sure at the vengeance levels we should except crit will be stronger), obviously if my life is of concern stamina is easy to switch to and if they bring in caps to vengeance that may really make us need more health then stamina might be the way to go.

Point being as tank dps in 10 man really matters, i'm just starting to wonder about how i'm going to value my gearing come next tier, its all so very exciting, i'm pretty much guessing i'll find my self midway possibly switching on fight dependency.
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