Gems and HP

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Gems and HP

Postby Rhamnusia » Wed May 08, 2013 12:28 pm

Hello,

I am Long time reader, first time poster. I tank in 10m. My guild is small and we will most likely never do 25ms. I am approaching 800k health. And the question has been posed: Why ARE you stacking so much stamina?

Well >.> IONO!!! It's just kinda what everyone has been suggesting in the stat priorities. I'm not actually taking any single hits that really threaten my life. This is also due to some amazing healers in my guide.

I am currently sporting the Haste > Mastery stat priority and was thinking about replacing some Stamina gems with Haste gems... (if I was Mastery > Haste, I would be thinking of using Mastery gems. Since I find most Prots are using Mastery > Haste)

Should I change the way I gem or continue favor the stamina gems in my gear? Keep in mind I'm doing 10m progression, not 25m.

~Rhamnusia
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Re: Gems and HP

Postby lifeonmars » Wed May 08, 2013 1:01 pm

I think it really depends on how accurately you play. If you are very good at banking up HoPo and using it appropriately to cover physical specials and spending extra HoPo income on throughput mitigation in between those attacks, then you can do very well by going so far as to gem full secondaries in 10m.

On the other hand if your play isn't particularly accurate, you might feel better sticking to stam. In practice though I find in 10m, gemming full secondaries works out great, and with the right gear you can get a very large amount of haste which makes the rotation feel amazing. Objectively I would much rather lean toward secondaries in gems and going double stam in trinkets for general situations, even if it means using last tier's trinkets pending good RNG on Lei Shin's.
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Re: Gems and HP

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed May 08, 2013 6:57 pm

The stam requirements for 10m are much more lenient than 25m. 800k is a really big pile of hitpoints. You might want to consider moving some points into haste and/or mastery, assuming you are already hit capped (7.5%) and xpt hard capped (15%), and see how that feels to you and your healers. You may find having more haste allows you to do more interesting things :D
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Re: Gems and HP

Postby Koatanga » Wed May 08, 2013 7:29 pm

I've pretty much stopped listening to Mr Robot. I have roughly 700k buffed in my current set-up, and feel pretty comfortable in my T14/10N raiding. Mr Robot wants me to equip stam gems, use armour kits, and use two stam trinkets, at the cost of over 4% haste. Even when I drop stam to .9 in the custom weighting, it rates stam trinkets WAY higher than haste ones like Lei Shen's Final Orders.
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Re: Gems and HP

Postby econ21 » Thu May 09, 2013 3:51 am

This is a question most of us face and there's no universal answer. Theck said recently that it's the most common question he gets, prompting a series of blogs about it:

http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/04/09/st ... up-longer/

Theck favors stamina as the best survival stats and the AMR weights reflect this, although he is a 25 man heroic raider. From internet posts, I think the most common gearing of 10 man palatanks, at least for normal modes, is to gem haste rather than stamina. The argument is that things don't hit so hard, so why not get more dps? Given your health pool and your amazing healers, you may as well try it.

For my part, I tend to err on the side of survivability. Using Ask Mr Robot, I recently estimated that I could sacrifice 9% health for 8% haste (and hence dps), if I switched gems and trinkets. I've often wondered whether to make such trades, but lately felt so squishy that I've dismissed it[1]. My death typically dooms a boss attempt (someone else is likely to die, so we'd run out of CRs), whereas I can't see an extra 1% raid dps making a difference. On an Ultraxion type fight, I'd make the trade but Blizzard have stated they don't want dps checks in normals and typically the fights are more about execution.

[1]This squishiness is not due to large single hits - but I suspect often due to healers being distracted. Some of our dps have an alarming tendency to die early in fights and I think healers may sometimes be attending to them, so are slow to react when I face some nasty string of attacks.
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Re: Gems and HP

Postby lifeonmars » Thu May 09, 2013 1:05 pm

econ21 wrote:My death typically dooms a boss attempt (someone else is likely to die, so we'd run out of CRs), whereas I can't see an extra 1% raid dps making a difference. On an Ultraxion type fight, I'd make the trade but Blizzard have stated they don't want dps checks in normals and typically the fights are more about execution.


DPS checks are in the eye of the beholder. If any given raid can't keep it together sub-10% or reaches berzerk in that range, it's a dps check to them.
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Re: Gems and HP

Postby theckhd » Thu May 09, 2013 1:11 pm

Koatanga wrote:I've pretty much stopped listening to Mr Robot. I have roughly 700k buffed in my current set-up, and feel pretty comfortable in my T14/10N raiding. Mr Robot wants me to equip stam gems, use armour kits, and use two stam trinkets, at the cost of over 4% haste. Even when I drop stam to .9 in the custom weighting, it rates stam trinkets WAY higher than haste ones like Lei Shen's Final Orders.


Yeah, this couldn't have anything to do with the guy who writes AMR's stat weights knowing something about paladin tanking. :P

You do realize that the reason it rates stam trinkets WAY higher is because they're WAY better for survivability, right?

If you're comfortable with your survivability, then sure, drop some stamina. That's not a problem with AMR's stat weights. It's your own inability to use a tool properly (i.e. adjust your stat weights to match your situation).

If someone comes to me asking how to optimize their character for survivability, I give them a different answer than if they asked me if they wanted to maximize their DPS. AMR is no different, it just defaults to survivability.
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Re: Gems and HP

Postby lifeonmars » Tue May 14, 2013 9:13 am

Koatanga wrote:I've pretty much stopped listening to Mr Robot. I have roughly 700k buffed in my current set-up, and feel pretty comfortable in my T14/10N raiding. Mr Robot wants me to equip stam gems, use armour kits, and use two stam trinkets, at the cost of over 4% haste. Even when I drop stam to .9 in the custom weighting, it rates stam trinkets WAY higher than haste ones like Lei Shen's Final Orders.


All of these things are completely predictable based on the stat weights.

You have to tell it what to do via stat weight tweaking and/or setting the options for it to do what you want it to do. It has no way of knowing what you want it to do otherwise.
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Re: Gems and HP

Postby Thels » Tue May 28, 2013 7:44 am

Trinkets are the first reasonable place to swap out secondary stats for Stamina, considering you get 1.5 Stamina for 1.0 of any other stat.

After the no brainer choices (Chest enchant, Leg enchant, Shoulder enchant, Enchanter only Finger enchants, Leatherworker only Wrist enchant) Trinkets are the best ratio with 1.5 to 1. (Together with the Well Fed buff, IF you are using Hit/Expertise food to get Well Fed, which means you'll be sub-hit cap after a Combat Ress or what not.)

Only after equipping 2 stamina trinkets should you consider enchanting stamina on cloak/gloves/boots, which have a ratio of about 1 Stamina to 1 secondary stat. (Assuming you can use the hit rating on your cloak. If you're over hit cap, you can only really use stamina there.)

Only after using 2 stamina trinkets and using stamina enchants on cloak/gloves/boots should you consider using Stamina gems, due to the doubled secondary stats on gems. You only get 0.75 stamina out of every 1 secondary stat. (That's assuming you still go for socket bonuses. If you ignore those, it's closer to 0.65 Stamina per 1 secondary stat.)

(Exact ratios for Stamina vs not Stamina can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33197 )
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