vengeance question
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vengeance question
Take 2% of "raw" hit as AP for 20 seconds. But how does it stack ?
Say you took big hit and got 100k AP. 3 seconds later you take a hit worth 50k. does it Avg? max? Does it work like mage's ignite?
Say you took big hit and got 100k AP. 3 seconds later you take a hit worth 50k. does it Avg? max? Does it work like mage's ignite?
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 gomashon
 Posts: 40
 Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:09 am
Re: vengeance question
If I understand correctly, it's a rolling buff: each contribution to total Vengeance has a separate duration of 20s.
Jadhzia, Protection Paladin, EUSargeras
 Jadhzia
 Posts: 63
 Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:42 am
Re: vengeance question
I read something interesting (if counterintuitive) about vengeance on a brewmaster guide. If you take a big hit, you want to keep the vengeance from that for as long as possible (e.g. if it is followed by tank swap). So you should try to avoid a smaller hit, like soaking a damaging puddle, as it will lower your vengeance. This implies it averages, at least for the overlapping durations.
Getting half the active tank's vengeance when you taunt is also interesting, implying you might want to taunt after your 20 seconds, even if the active tank immediately taunts back, in order to keep some vengeance. (Being careful not to make the boss taunt immune!).
Getting half the active tank's vengeance when you taunt is also interesting, implying you might want to taunt after your 20 seconds, even if the active tank immediately taunts back, in order to keep some vengeance. (Being careful not to make the boss taunt immune!).
 econ21
 Posts: 1217
 Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:53 am
Re: vengeance question
this should be true:
for the first hit we get:
unmitigated damage / attackspeed(of your enemy) *0.18
(if the first attack we receive is NOT a normal melee hit but a special attack, the attackspeed should be normalized to 60)
from now on Vengeance is recalculated every time we receive damage:
Vn = new vengeance
Vo = old vengeance
Td = the Delta, time since we last received vengeance through damage
D = unmitigted damage
Dm = magical damage
Vn = Vo * (20  Td)/20 + 0,018 * D
the Faktor 0,018 is only true for physical damage. for magical damage it's:
Vn = Vo * (20  Td)/20 + 0,045 * Dm
Example: an imaginary Boss has a swingtimer of 1.5 Seconds and hits for 200 000 unmitigated Damage:
We got no Cooldowns and we have enough Armor to reduce meleehits by 55%, now "Sanctuary" reduces by 15% and weakened blows by another 10%. So we get hit with :200000 * (1  0,55) * (1  0,15) * (1  0,1) = 200000 * 0,45*0,75*0,9 = 60750 damage
the first hit gives us 200000/1,5 * 0.18 = 24000 AP from vengeance
the second hit, hits us 1.5 seconds later the new vengeance (Vn) should then be:
Vo=24000
Td=1,5
D=200000
Vn=24000*(201,5)/20 + 0,018 * 200000 = 25800 AP
for the third hit of that kind:
Vn=25800*(201,5)/20 + 0.018 * 200000 = 27465 AP
and so on
also, this makes vengeance stop growing at about 36% unmitigated BossDPS
for the first hit we get:
unmitigated damage / attackspeed(of your enemy) *0.18
(if the first attack we receive is NOT a normal melee hit but a special attack, the attackspeed should be normalized to 60)
from now on Vengeance is recalculated every time we receive damage:
Vn = new vengeance
Vo = old vengeance
Td = the Delta, time since we last received vengeance through damage
D = unmitigted damage
Dm = magical damage
Vn = Vo * (20  Td)/20 + 0,018 * D
the Faktor 0,018 is only true for physical damage. for magical damage it's:
Vn = Vo * (20  Td)/20 + 0,045 * Dm
Example: an imaginary Boss has a swingtimer of 1.5 Seconds and hits for 200 000 unmitigated Damage:
We got no Cooldowns and we have enough Armor to reduce meleehits by 55%, now "Sanctuary" reduces by 15% and weakened blows by another 10%. So we get hit with :200000 * (1  0,55) * (1  0,15) * (1  0,1) = 200000 * 0,45*0,75*0,9 = 60750 damage
the first hit gives us 200000/1,5 * 0.18 = 24000 AP from vengeance
the second hit, hits us 1.5 seconds later the new vengeance (Vn) should then be:
Vo=24000
Td=1,5
D=200000
Vn=24000*(201,5)/20 + 0,018 * 200000 = 25800 AP
for the third hit of that kind:
Vn=25800*(201,5)/20 + 0.018 * 200000 = 27465 AP
and so on
also, this makes vengeance stop growing at about 36% unmitigated BossDPS

Schroom  Posts: 652
 Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
 Location: Luxembourg
Re: vengeance question
To show, that we can in fact lose vengeance by taking damage we have to consider damaging events of different scale (for example taking a full Decapitate from LeiShen and afterwards a tick from his melee ranged ae clouds). Let's model an example, where we first take 3 million dmg (at 0 veng) and then after 10 seconds get a 50k tick.
First after the Decapitat we would be at (3mil * 0.018) = 54k veng.
Now after 10 sec we get the tick and new veng would be (54k * (10/20)) + 0.045 * 50k = 29250
So the ae would lower our veng by ~15k.
First after the Decapitat we would be at (3mil * 0.018) = 54k veng.
Now after 10 sec we get the tick and new veng would be (54k * (10/20)) + 0.045 * 50k = 29250
So the ae would lower our veng by ~15k.
 Ergil
 Posts: 12
 Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:49 am
Re: vengeance question
with 5.4
as we know,
Vn = Vo * (20  Td)/20 + 0,018 * D
turns to
Vn = Vo * (20  Td)/20 + 0,015 * D
my quesition is, does the initial hit still give you:
unmitigated damage / attackspeed(of your enemy) *0.18 ?
does Vengeance still flatten out at ~36% of BossDPS?
does magical still give you 4.5% of the unmitigated magical damage taken as attack power?
as we know,
Vn = Vo * (20  Td)/20 + 0,018 * D
turns to
Vn = Vo * (20  Td)/20 + 0,015 * D
my quesition is, does the initial hit still give you:
unmitigated damage / attackspeed(of your enemy) *0.18 ?
does Vengeance still flatten out at ~36% of BossDPS?
does magical still give you 4.5% of the unmitigated magical damage taken as attack power?

Schroom  Posts: 652
 Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
 Location: Luxembourg
Re: vengeance question
No, No, and No.
The steadystate value isn't hardcoded anywhere, it's just based on the formula you posted (Vn = Vo *(20  Td)/20 + 0.015*D), where D is the boss's unmitigated swing damage. Let's let S be the swing timer (or period), so the boss's unmitigated DPS is D/S.
The steadystate is estimated as follows:
5.3: Steadystate would be 0.018*D/S*20 = 0.36*D/S
5.4: Steadystate would be 0.015*D/S*20 = 0.30*D/S
The first attack always brings you up to at least 50% of the steadystate estimate.
5.3: First attack brings you to 0.5*0.018*D/S*20 = 0.18*D/S
5.4: First attack brings you to 0.5*0.015*D/S*20 = 0.15*D/S
Magical damage just gives 2.5x as much Vengeance as physical damage, so when the physical Vengeance coefficient changes, so does the magical one. Let M be the unmitigated amount of magical damage in an attack:
5.3: Magical damage gives 2.5*0.018*M = 0.0450*M
5.4: Magical damage gives 2.5*0.015*M = 0.0375*M
The steadystate value isn't hardcoded anywhere, it's just based on the formula you posted (Vn = Vo *(20  Td)/20 + 0.015*D), where D is the boss's unmitigated swing damage. Let's let S be the swing timer (or period), so the boss's unmitigated DPS is D/S.
The steadystate is estimated as follows:
5.3: Steadystate would be 0.018*D/S*20 = 0.36*D/S
5.4: Steadystate would be 0.015*D/S*20 = 0.30*D/S
The first attack always brings you up to at least 50% of the steadystate estimate.
5.3: First attack brings you to 0.5*0.018*D/S*20 = 0.18*D/S
5.4: First attack brings you to 0.5*0.015*D/S*20 = 0.15*D/S
Magical damage just gives 2.5x as much Vengeance as physical damage, so when the physical Vengeance coefficient changes, so does the magical one. Let M be the unmitigated amount of magical damage in an attack:
5.3: Magical damage gives 2.5*0.018*M = 0.0450*M
5.4: Magical damage gives 2.5*0.015*M = 0.0375*M
Last edited by theckhd on Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Bolding is fun
Reason: Bolding is fun
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 6211
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: vengeance question
thanks. that's why Questions are there. Because something is unclear. And I want to "know" before imposing something wrong elsewhere. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Schroom  Posts: 652
 Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
 Location: Luxembourg
Re: vengeance question
Yup. In case it wasn't clear, that "No, No, No" wasn't meant to be critical. You just asked three questions, and I had three identical answers.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 6211
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
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