Prot Paladin Stat weights

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Zenobius » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:27 am

Alright guys,

So, I've been reading a bit diagonally on here and Sacred Duty and haven't managed to find my answer just yet.

So here is the question:

I'm going for a haste build with Exp hard capped on my prot paladin, I managed to get something together that I think is decent as far as custom stats weights are concerned but I'm no pro in Theorycrafting or even basic math, I kinda wing it and assess the feel of the deal. So, if I was to punch in hard, solid numbers for stats weight, keeping in mind the priority I'm going for; 7.5% Hit/15% Exp/HASTE/Stam/Mastery/parry/dodge, what would they be like?

I appreciate all your help

Thanks in advance!
User avatar
Zenobius
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Canada

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Jadhzia » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:32 am

If I remember correctly, ths stat weights at Ask Mr. Robot were provided by Theck, so here they are:

Stamina 4
Hit 3
Expertise 2.99
Haste 1
Mastery 0.9
Armor 0.64
Strength 0.5
Dodge 0.25
Parry 0.25

Personally, I change the Stamina weight to 3, which seems more appropriate in my case (only 10-man normal mode raiding) because :
- With Stamina so far above Hit and Expertise, Mr. Robot wants me to drop the caps on both, which is a very bad idea.
- Hybrid gems (Stamina + other stat) can be suggested instead of pure blue gems.
Jadhzia, Protection Paladin, EU-Sargeras
Jadhzia
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:42 am

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:27 am

I think you can achieve the same result with 3.9 or 3.8 on stam. Theck had specifically set Stam at 4 because there was a breakpoint around that point.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3272
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Fetzie » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:10 am

That was the breakpoint for AMR to stop gemming hit instead of stamina in blue sockets.
Fetzie | Protection/Holy Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Former Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Zenobius » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:49 am

Awesome, I'll try that out and see what happens! Thanks a lot guys!
User avatar
Zenobius
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Canada

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Rachmaninoff » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:34 pm

Its been a long time and I'm glad to be playing again. but can someone explain to me why dodge and parry are on the bottom of the weight list? and why haste is even on the list? I know things have changed and I haven't been around in a long time but has the world gone mad? cats and dogs living together? mass hysteria?
User avatar
Rachmaninoff
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:33 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:36 pm

Rachmaninoff wrote:Its been a long time and I'm glad to be playing again. but can someone explain to me why dodge and parry are on the bottom of the weight list? and why haste is even on the list? I know things have changed and I haven't been around in a long time but has the world gone mad? cats and dogs living together? mass hysteria?

Bliz has gone to an active mitigation model for tanks. Our mitigation requires Holy Power, so the faster we generate Holy Power, the more frequently we can deploy our active mitigation. In addition, the Seal of Choice these days is Insight, so the more damage we do, the more we heal ourselves. If that wasn't enough, we also have the Glyph of Battle Healer to heal others - again tied to the amount of damage we do.

Haste gives us more holy power to do more mitigating and lets us do more damage which in turn does more healing to us and the group.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby lythac » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:31 am

Koatanga wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:Its been a long time and I'm glad to be playing again. but can someone explain to me why dodge and parry are on the bottom of the weight list? and why haste is even on the list? I know things have changed and I haven't been around in a long time but has the world gone mad? cats and dogs living together? mass hysteria?

Bliz has gone to an active mitigation model for tanks. Our mitigation requires Holy Power, so the faster we generate Holy Power, the more frequently we can deploy our active mitigation. In addition, the Seal of Choice these days is Insight, so the more damage we do, the more we heal ourselves. If that wasn't enough, we also have the Glyph of Battle Healer to heal others - again tied to the amount of damage we do.

Haste gives us more holy power to do more mitigating and lets us do more damage which in turn does more healing to us and the group.


Also block capping has gone, 2 roll system now - first roll for avoidance, second for block. So the reduced damage intake from dodge/parry is completely RNG.
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Nagrand-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2072
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:35 am

Koatanga wrote:In addition, the Seal of Choice these days is Insight, so the more damage we do, the more we heal ourselves. If that wasn't enough, we also have the Glyph of Battle Healer to heal others - again tied to the amount of damage we do.

Just to clarify, Seal of Insight healing is not linked to damage. It's a 15 PPM proc chance per melee attack, with its own AP/SP scaling formula. We do get more procs with haste though, as we generate attacks per second. It's only Battle Healer that's tied to damage done.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Fetzie » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:49 am

Thought it was 20ppm. Didn't they buff it?
Fetzie | Protection/Holy Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Former Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:13 am

Yeah, you're right, it's 20 ppm now. I forgot about that buff.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:44 pm

theckhd wrote:
Koatanga wrote:In addition, the Seal of Choice these days is Insight, so the more damage we do, the more we heal ourselves. If that wasn't enough, we also have the Glyph of Battle Healer to heal others - again tied to the amount of damage we do.

Just to clarify, Seal of Insight healing is not linked to damage. It's a 15 PPM proc chance per melee attack, with its own AP/SP scaling formula. We do get more procs with haste though, as we generate attacks per second. It's only Battle Healer that's tied to damage done.

Oops, sorry about that one. Was thinking more haste = more healing and more haste = more damage as a nice side-effect, and I crossed the beams.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Zenobius » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:40 pm

Another question, I understand that according to you Theck, Stamina is your best survival stat, which I can understand to a certain extent, after a certain time, it seems to me like you have "enough" Stam, but with th numbers you uggested for AMR, it keeps wanting to put mixxed color gems with Stam on them, why not go Exp/Haste or Hit/Haste and such? And also, according to YOU, what is ENOUGH stam?

Thanks
User avatar
Zenobius
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Canada

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:49 pm

Have you seen my setup? More stam is always better, in my opinion. At least in heroic modes, I haven't yet felt like having more stamina would be a bad thing. Some of those heroic bosses hit hard - an unmitigated attack can be around 300k. Having ~750k health is still not enough of a cushion to make that comfortable.

You will see people say that you need less stamina for 10-mans. I can't speak to this firsthand, because I don't raid 10-man. The boss's damage output is certainly much lower, but I couldn't tell you exactly how much lower. I still think that stam-stacking is your best survival strategy in 10-mans though, at least if you're interested in pure survival. The question facing 10-man raiders is not, in my mind, "when do I have enough stamina." It's "when do I have enough stamina that I can safely start gearing for haste/DPS." Stamina is a better survivability stat than haste no matter how much you have, but the DPS benefits of haste can be a bigger advantage in killing heroic bosses.

Also, for those interested, here are the stat weights I use in AMR:
Stam: 4
Hit: 3
Exp: 2.99, all the way to hard cap
Haste: 1.75
Armor: 1
Mastery: 0.9
Dodge/Parry/Strength: 0.5

They're slightly tweaked from my original ones (which are the AMR control/haste defaults) so that it optimizes a little more logically. For example, this will generally skip a dodge/parry socket bonus but pick up a mastery or haste bonus, gem haste/stam in most yellow sockets as long as hit cap can be reached through reforging, and so on.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Fetzie » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:52 am

From my limited experience of 10m heroic raiding (first three bosses in MGV), when you have ilvl 490 or higher equipped, you have enough stamina with a single stamina trinket. As the tank's DPS is a much greater proportion of the raid dps as a whole and the DPS checks can be fairly brutal, I would focus on haste over stamina, so long as the boss isn't killing you before the healers can heal you.

Your mileage may vary, the better your healers, the less stamina you need. If they always need a fraction longer to heal you, then stamina may be worth slightly more to you.
Fetzie | Protection/Holy Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Former Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby daishan » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:33 am

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... n/advanced
As you can probably see from that I like haste as a 10 man raider, all of my prog kills have been done with that kind of setup plus haste and armour elixirs bar empress where I have a stam flask to make 6 windblades a little safer.
Theck has it spot on though, I'm not going haste because I don't want more stam, it's just that in 10 man my dps is a very sizeable % of total raid dps, and the extra battle healer procs on the fights we 2 heal don't hurt either.
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Katharsis » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:33 am

Theck..
I have been messing around with stat weights in AMR for a while now, and I cannot seem to find something that suits me personally (maybe I am just crazy but...). My guild only does 10N raiding, and stam on gear is pretty much all I use (minus socket bonuses and a few enchants etc). Haste, is seems, has gotten me to a point where my rotation hits a lull and I an just doing white hits for (what feels like) about 6-8 seconds. Is there a break point for haste that can cause/solve this? If so, could you assist me in coming up with some weights that would/could specifically help me?

Edit: Especially with 5.2 coming today! Thanks!
Katharsis
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:44 am

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:44 am

You shouldn't ever be getting 6-8 seconds of empty space in your rotation. Ever. Crusader Strike has a 4.5-second cooldown, so even if you had nothing else, you'd be casting something every 3 GCDs.

Sanctity of Battle reduces spell cooldowns with haste, so at high haste levels your GCD utilization doesn't change significantly, everything just happens faster. If you cast CS-J-AS-CS-Cons-J-CS-HW-SS- with 0 haste, you'll cast exactly the same sequence with 20% haste, you'll just do it 20% faster. Instead of 9*1.5=13.5 seconds, it will take 11.25 seconds to go through that entire sequence.

Do you have a parse that I can look at? That might help identify what's causing you to see such large gaps.

As far as stat weights, I posted some suggestions on the AMR forums to mimic the different gear strategies I've outlined in my blog posts.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Katharsis » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:48 pm

Thanks! I will see what I can do on the parses.. I know the gaps werent THAT long, they just felt that long.

As far as gearing/stats, most of my gear is actual "tank" gear, simply because we have 1-2 plate DPS in our raids, and have only managed to pick up a few haste/(w/e) pieces...not that that should really matter overall for my issues...
Katharsis
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:44 am

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Redleg » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:31 pm

I'm kind of curious how many people are using AMR. There's currently a thread on the official Paladin forums where there's a large number of people saying that AMR has no value, should never be used, etc. There's a few of us trying to say that if used properly, and adjusted for your situation, it's a useful tool.

I bring it up here because Theck's name has been tossed out a few times in the topic, and it seems to at least somewhat relate to this topic here since people are basically saying that not only the default weights terrible, but even if you adjust them you are wrong to use AMR, whether it's for tanking or dps.

I'm a hobbyist programmer and I love tools that make my life easier. I also understand that when using a tool, you have to always make sure you understand the tool and that it's working for you, not you constantly working around it. Just grabbing a new tool that you don't understand how to use can create more problems for you in the long run. That being said, I find tools like AMR to be quite helpful personally, and I usually tweak the weights a bit for my own needs. For instance I only ever tank LFR currently, so my needs are different from a heroic progression raider.
Redleg
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:34 pm
Location: Draenor - US

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:04 pm

Holy cow people are angry in that thread. I don't know that it's a "great many people" so much as it's a couple really, really angry folks. It's like AMR shat in their cheerios or something.

I use AMR to get a bead on efficiently hitting 7.5hit/15xpt. Everything else I tool by hand (specifically stam and haste).
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby chace86 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:14 pm

AMR seems to give me odd results if I do not have the "Exclude Special Metagem" slot checked. Not sure if that is intended or not. I am using the Control/Mastery strategy. It tells me to reforge haste from mastery. If I set it to Control/Mastery, it reforges and gems everything haste, without reaching hit cap or hard expertise cap (even with the option "Force to hit and expertise cap" enabled).

My armory: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ ... roletarian
chace86
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Fetzie » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:22 am

Tools are as bad as their user. If the user doesn't know how to use it, or uses the tool the wrong way, then they won't get the right results.
Fetzie | Protection/Holy Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Former Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Fenrìr » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:07 am

I use it and adjust it for my own personal haste values, sort of like Fuzzy, it's just a guide to hit/exp caps. I used to use Chardev as it allowed me a lot more freedom without all the BS AMR tries to feed me.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: Prot Paladin Stat weights

Postby Ironshield » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:32 am

I find AMR exceedingly helpful, but there are always a few things to look out for.

A couple things I would suggest to look out for especially:
Always look at all the changes BEFORE you start reforging or you'll waste a lot of gold when you realize you have a slightly sub-optimal gem in a slot that would cost a fortune to replace (not too big a problem with current gem prices but you get the idea).

Make sure you lock down any shared gear or be prepared to have a very hard time sorting out both your DPS and Tank specs.

I have noticed occasionally that it will suggest ignoring gem slots even when that slot bonus would make up for the change. Don't know if it was just a bug that has since been fixed but just keep an eye on it. I had it tell me to use a Solid in a yellow slot that had a +120 stam slot bonus.
Image
Ironshield
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:46 pm

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest