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Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:44 am

I found haste pretty tasty in 10 man, I eased of it to get my HP back up a touch, but with SoL I'm basically at about 60% of a healer level HPS constant, more on Stone Guards where I topped the healing meters :D.

Extermi wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but Theck did show in his simulations that avoidance/mastery stacking does indeed reduce the amount of damage taken, in average.


Theck showed that pretty much everything reduces damage taken just to differing degrees, even the old all avoidance/ forget hit and exp reduces damage taken over a fight just more spikey. Haste = Mastery it's just a matter of preference at this stage I think, you can't help but pick up quite a bit of mastery anyway.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Vayacondios » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:00 am

Treck wrote:
Vayacondios wrote:Two things that are ALWAYS the same between the two for me is I keep 7.50% exp and hit, getting the HP from it is really important imo

I really dont get why people stop at 7.5 exp.
I can understand if someone says they wanna completely ignore it, either cause they dont want hit/exp at all (even tho i fully think they are wrong) or if they say they only care about Judgement always hitting, and dont care that much about expertise.
But stopping at 7.5 is just so weird, its like saying you only want 3.75hit, and wanna go half way cause of no real reason.



I would think it's around the same problem that I face when I look at going for hard cap. I'd like to get the hard cap, but in my gear it would mean that I would lose a LOT of everything else. Not having hard cap only costs be about 8-12 HP per fight (give or take a few, in I get bad RNG during HA it costs me more than normal) I plan on giving hard cap another try once I get close to the 500ilvl range.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:41 am

The question remains, why stop at 7.5?
Sure if you wanna get exp to hardcap without sacrificing to much of everything else and then successively get more and more the more gear you aquire.
My point is, expertise doesnt scale differently past 7.5%, it just keeps working just like before all the way up to 15, you might argue that the chances of actually missing with higher values means its so rare its hardly going to make much differance anyway, but then I highly doubt 7.5 exp is the sweetspot.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:58 am

Treck wrote:The question remains, why stop at 7.5?
Sure if you wanna get exp to hardcap without sacrificing to much of everything else and then successively get more and more the more gear you aquire.
My point is, expertise doesnt scale differently past 7.5%, it just keeps working just like before all the way up to 15, you might argue that the chances of actually missing with higher values means its so rare its hardly going to make much differance anyway, but then I highly doubt 7.5 exp is the sweetspot.

I think most people that stop at 7.5% do so because they're under the mistaken belief that it works like it did in Cataclysm, being twice as effective under 7.5% as it is over 7.5%. It's not a change that's been advertised that heavily, so I can see how someone would miss it.

The other potential argument is DPS. Assuming hit-cap, expertise drops off in DPS value at 7.5%. So a max-DPS build would be hit to 7.5%, exp to 7.5%, and then stack haste.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby daishan » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:17 am

theckhd wrote:I think most people that stop at 7.5% do so because they're under the mistaken belief that it works like it did in Cataclysm, being twice as effective under 7.5% as it is over 7.5%. It's not a change that's been advertised that heavily, so I can see how someone would miss it.


Could you clarify that for the slow among us plz :)
I'm assuming all of our holy power generators are tagged as melee attacks?
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:24 am

In cataclysm, first 26 expertise were removing both parry and dodge off the table, since bosses had 5% chance to dodge and 12%~ parry chance. So the first 26 expertise would remove 5% dodge and 5% parry, then the following expertise would remove only parry cause all dodge was already taken off.

In MoP, bosses have 7.5% dodge chance and 7.5% parry chance. The first 7.5% expertise remove only dodge while the following 7.5% expertise remove only parry.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:26 am

Wouldn't expertise still be a dps gain above 7.5%, considering the parries would no longer diminish our melee damage ?

or am I outdated on how parry works now.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby daishan » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:33 am

Exp above 7.5% does increase our dps it's just that some of our attacks are on the spell hit table, so once at spell hit cap 15% (7.5% hit + 7.5% exp) haste will push ahead of exp as a dps stat.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:41 am

But since it doesnt hold true for our Holy power generators, we want exp all the way up.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Menian » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:26 pm

Treck wrote:But since it doesnt hold true for our Holy power generators, we want exp all the way up.


Makes sense. I know for me it has been hard to get to that cap at all because of my lower gear levels so I haven't had a chance to really work with the full 15% expertise though.

Theoretically is there a place where the chance to be parried and miss out on HP be "covered up" by increased haste?
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Lastwolf » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:41 am

You'd be papering over the cracks but yeah a little, I don't think it ever can realistically get to a stage were you have so much haste it doesn't matter if you miss 0.5%.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Menian » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:01 am

Gotcha. Not saying I would really ever have that much haste at this point without sacrificing a ton of other stats.

I'm definitely going to be aiming for the full %15 as soon as gear allows.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Absalom » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:52 am

Haven't swung by here in the past week or two, but I am still reading! :)

Just saw the post and wanted to say thank you for the kind words. I'd be more than happy to weigh in on my experiences with heroics right after progression is over.

Which, hopefully, will be soon!
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Thels » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:13 am

Hmm, as for my two cents:

Hit/Exp/Haste increases the maximum possible uptime of SotR.
Mastery increases the effect of SotR when it's up.

It's already been determined that if you press SotR whenever you're at 5HP, Hit/Exp/Haste wins, as your damage intake is much more smoother.

However, what if you don't care about uptime? What if you keep it around as a miniCD, perhaps sitting on your 5HP until you really need it? Naturally, you'll take more damage overall, but you'd be able to use SotR when it really shines. With that reasoning, Mastery would really shine over Hit/Exp/Haste.
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Re: Grats Absalom/Blood Legion! Mastery Stacking Viable?

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:07 pm

Thels wrote:Hmm, as for my two cents:

Hit/Exp/Haste increases the maximum possible uptime of SotR.
Mastery increases the effect of SotR when it's up.

It's already been determined that if you press SotR whenever you're at 5HP, Hit/Exp/Haste wins, as your damage intake is much more smoother.

However, what if you don't care about uptime? What if you keep it around as a miniCD, perhaps sitting on your 5HP until you really need it? Naturally, you'll take more damage overall, but you'd be able to use SotR when it really shines. With that reasoning, Mastery would really shine over Hit/Exp/Haste.

My question would then be... what are you using your HP on... WoG? Or are you just sitting on 5HP until you "need" your SotR?

Edit: Nvm, just saw you're talking about doing the latter. If that's the case, you're definitely losing out on dps, as well as increasing your damage intake (without gaining extra vengeance, since you'd already be gaining the vengeance from those attacks anyway.)
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