Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:51 am

DisRuptive1 wrote:Since this thread was about stacking Haste, I figure I'd ask this question here.

Gloryrider wrote:I had already brought up sacred shield ticks before, and after running it by Theck quickly we figured out our 30% (spell!) haste breakpoint is attainable and at around 5336 haste rating. This is assuming SoI and the spell haste raid buff active on you. This will give you a 2nd extra tick and thus 7 shields over casts lasting ~32 seconds.


This was posted on EJ. Is this information correct?

Yes, (1+5336/425/100)*1.1*1.05=1.3000, or 30% haste, which gets you a 7th tick. However, it will be difficult to reach that this tier without very careful gear choices. For example, right now I have an ilvl of 493, with 890 haste rating, ~3000 parry rating, and ~3500 dodge rating, but I'm using mostly "traditional" tanking gear. If I could replace some dodge and parry items with haste/hit or haste/exp items, I could shift some of that 7500 avoidance rating over into haste and reach the 30% mark. Note that this is spell haste, though, not melee haste (i.e. not what's considered for SoB).
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Jaitee » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:28 pm

theckhd wrote:
DisRuptive1 wrote:Since this thread was about stacking Haste, I figure I'd ask this question here.

Gloryrider wrote:I had already brought up sacred shield ticks before, and after running it by Theck quickly we figured out our 30% (spell!) haste breakpoint is attainable and at around 5336 haste rating. This is assuming SoI and the spell haste raid buff active on you. This will give you a 2nd extra tick and thus 7 shields over casts lasting ~32 seconds.


This was posted on EJ. Is this information correct?

Yes, (1+5336/425/100)*1.1*1.05=1.3000, or 30% haste, which gets you a 7th tick. However, it will be difficult to reach that this tier without very careful gear choices. For example, right now I have an ilvl of 493, with 890 haste rating, ~3000 parry rating, and ~3500 dodge rating, but I'm using mostly "traditional" tanking gear. If I could replace some dodge and parry items with haste/hit or haste/exp items, I could shift some of that 7500 avoidance rating over into haste and reach the 30% mark. Note that this is spell haste, though, not melee haste (i.e. not what's considered for SoB).


that amount isnt too hard to get if you are lucky on drops (and like me have no strength dps to gear first/roll against) im at 5500ish with 1 stam trinket if i take it of and throw on my will of the emperor trinket i have way more...though i am a normal mode tank in a 6 hour a week guild so i can pretty much ignore stam gemming since there really isnt any normal mode stuff that hits hard enough
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Brokenone wrote:When you say there is no advantage, does that mean you simmed both ways? It feels very weird to pause when I have another ability up I could use. How significant will the spike frequency / TDR / DPS change when moving from one way to the other?

Also, isn't it a bigger gap on the CS-X-X part of the cycle since you'll likely have two "spell haste" category fillers?

Yes, earlier on in beta (when SoB was alternating between spell and melee haste) I ran some simulations on this issue. It universally turned out that trying to fit in extra fillers was a DPS loss. The reasoning is pretty obvious: you're using fillers ~0.1-0.2 seconds early, but pushing back HPG by ~1.2-1.3 seconds. That reduces SotR uptime (a survivability loss) and DPS (because you get fewer SotRs). All of those sims were done without the 10% haste from SoI, but it held true over a large range of haste values, so I don't expect that would change the results at all. The effect is twice as noticeable on the CS-X-X section, you're correct. But it's still not beneficial to take advantage of it.

I haven't done anything looking at this effect and spike frequency - I don't expect that it's worth bothering since it'll be a flat-out increase in spike frequency for no DPS gain.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:32 pm

Theck, is there a point where Divine Purpose would just become so powerful due to the amount of finishers we would be using? Or would you always suggest using Holy Avenger or Sanctified Wrath for the control of it?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:58 pm

Interesting question. I'd say that yes, there's definitely a point where DP shines, but it's probably at ~50% or more haste, or when you can reasonably reach 70-80% average uptime on SotR.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:39 am

theckhd wrote:Interesting question. I'd say that yes, there's definitely a point where DP shines, but it's probably at ~50% or more haste, or when you can reasonably reach 70-80% average uptime on SotR.


Thanks for the response, theck. Couple more questions:

1) Would it be wise to spec into DP when it's realistic to reach that haste number during bloodlust? Or would it only shine when/if we reach 50% without bloodlust

2) How does Sanctified Wrath interact with haste? Does the 50% cooldown reduction get calculated before or after haste (i.e. is it a flat 3 second reduction?).

3) Not related to haste, but does Holy Avenger boost the damage of a Grand Crusader-procced Avenger's Shield?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:55 am

Even with BiS gear I think it taps out at about 39% haste, not sure bloodlust would make up the difference.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Fetzie » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:21 am

3) Not related to haste, but does Holy Avenger boost the damage of a Grand Crusader-procced Avenger's Shield?


No.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:34 am

boneyjellyfish wrote:1) Would it be wise to spec into DP when it's realistic to reach that haste number during bloodlust? Or would it only shine when/if we reach 50% without bloodlust

2) How does Sanctified Wrath interact with haste? Does the 50% cooldown reduction get calculated before or after haste (i.e. is it a flat 3 second reduction?).

3) Not related to haste, but does Holy Avenger boost the damage of a Grand Crusader-procced Avenger's Shield?

1) If you use HA during bloodlust you can keep stacking the buff so high that the uptime will be 100% for about 35-40sec depending on your haste, so I dont see why DP would be more attractive.

2) The CD reduction is before haste, aka during Avenging Wrath it has a 3sec CD then affected by haste, its also not a flat 3sec reduction since the haste affecting its GCD is different from 3sec and 6sec, so the haste should still reduce its CD by the same %, but since its CD will be lower, it wont be as much in seconds.

3) Yes it does, but in order for you to get the benefit, you have to get the grand crusader procc when affected by HA, if you use HA after you get the procc, it is not affected by the increase in damage, if done before it proccs, it WILL do another 30% damage.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:49 am

The whole point of my questions is evaluating the three talents: HA, SW, and DP, when paired with large amounts of haste. HA is the only talent that doesn't scale with haste (except in terms of its damage increase for HP-generating abilities). Regarding DP, I'm wondering at what point it would be beneficial to use DP instead of HA due to its haste scaling effects. Theck says that SotR uptime at around 50% haste would be ~70-80% (obviously, not hard numbers here). If we can get 80% uptime during BL and about 60% uptime otherwise, it seems like it would be fair to take it then vs. HA.

Regarding Sanctified Wrath, what I'm asking is how haste is calculated for it. I'm asking if:

1) Haste is calculated based on a 6-second cooldown and brings it down to 5 seconds. You then activate Sanctified Wrath and it brings it down to 2 seconds.

2) Haste is calculated based on a 6-second cooldown and brings it down to 5 seconds. You then activate Sanctified Wrath and it brings it down to 3 seconds, and then haste is recalculated bringing it down to 2.8 seconds or something.

3) Haste is calculated based on a 6-second cooldown and brings it down to 5 seconds. You then activate Sanctified Wrath and it brings it down to 2.5 seconds.

In situation 1) and 3), it seems like at high haste it could be worth taking SW over HA since we would have ~80-90% SotR uptime with it up, plus the healing bonus.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:01 am

3.
The haste benefit (in this case 1sec) would be halfed to 0.5sec, so in you could actually pretty much say that it halfs the CD nomatter the haste, its still half.
Im not sure if the numbers would become weird in very high haste numbers tho.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Gab » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:36 am

boneyjellyfish wrote:The whole point of my questions is evaluating the three talents: HA, SW, and DP, when paired with large amounts of haste. HA is the only talent that doesn't scale with haste (except in terms of its damage increase for HP-generating abilities).


Except HA does scale with haste... More CS/J casts (increased by haste through SoB) during the effect of HA means greater holy power generation and higher SotR uptime.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:44 am

SotR uptime is already at around 100% during HA, especially if you do HA during the execution phase where you get 2HP from Hammer of Wrath. HA scales with haste because of the increased DPS, but in terms of survivability there really isn't much of a gain if any at all.

Speaking of Hammer of Wrath in HA, though, does anyone know if HA increases our HoW damage?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:48 am

umm but it the length of the 100% uptime is increased with your haste, so that is scaling.

0% haste you might only get 20seconds of 100% uptime.

with 30% haster you might get 40seconds of 100% buff coverage.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:06 am

boneyjellyfish wrote:SotR uptime is already at around 100% during HA, especially if you do HA during the execution phase where you get 2HP from Hammer of Wrath. HA scales with haste because of the increased DPS, but in terms of survivability there really isn't much of a gain if any at all.

As others have said, that's not strictly true. You get a roughly linear increase in HA uptime with haste because the buff is additive. More CS+J+AS means more SotR casts, which means longer uptime.

boneyjellyfish wrote:Speaking of Hammer of Wrath in HA, though, does anyone know if HA increases our HoW damage?

As far as I know, it doesn't, but I haven't tested that specifically. Should be easy to do so though, 30% is a large change. HoW does still grant 2 Holy Power during Holy Avenger, however, unless 5.1 fixed that.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:24 am

So what you're saying is that casting SotR doesn't refresh the buff, but rather it adds to it? So if I do 5HP SotR - CS - 3HP SotR it will add 3 seconds to time remaining on the SotR buff?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Brokenone » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:35 am

boneyjellyfish wrote:So what you're saying is that casting SotR doesn't refresh the buff, but rather it adds to it? So if I do 5HP SotR - CS - 3HP SotR it will add 3 seconds to time remaining on the SotR buff?


Yes.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Thels » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:51 am

HoW grants hp during HA? Would that be a reason to bump HoW straight after J during HA?

Oh, and don't base talents after Heroism. For all you know, you might nit even be tanking during Heroism. Better take something you have control over.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:49 pm

HoW should be ahead of J below 20% for dps, while J > HoW for HPgen.
HoW only grants 2x HP (im guessing its an issue since it gives HP as ret, so when HA is up it gives +2 HP on all abilities, and they just forgot to blacklist HoW for prot) so depending on how many HP you started out with, HoW will make you able to use Shield of the Righteous after every cast as well, altho im not 100% sure what is best for optimal HP generation, I guess it should still be CS>J>HoW but I think Theck has to correct me on that.

And yes, HoW also benefits from the 30% additional damage that Holy avenger provides when it generates Holypower.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:22 pm

Treck wrote:HoW only grants 2x HP (im guessing its an issue since it gives HP as ret, so when HA is up it gives +2 HP on all abilities, and they just forgot to blacklist HoW for prot)

Yup, this is exactly the bug. HA basically gives +2 HP generation to each generator, and HoW is a generator for ret. When they gave the ability back to us, they turned off its default HP generation, but forgot to inform HA about that detail. :P

Treck wrote:HoW should be ahead of J below 20% for dps, while J > HoW for HPgen.

Yes, and this is true with or without HA. HoW hits so damn hard that HoW>CS is even a DPS increase. That said, if you're aiming for survivability, you'd put it behind your other HP generators.

Treck wrote:so depending on how many HP you started out with, HoW will make you able to use Shield of the Righteous after every cast as well, altho im not 100% sure what is best for optimal HP generation, I guess it should still be CS>J>HoW but I think Theck has to correct me on that.


Rough math:
CS>J>HoW gives CS-J-HoW-CS-X-J-CS-HoW-X- repeat.
HP gen is 3/4.5=0.6667 from CS, 3/6.75=0.4444 from J, and 2/6.75=0.2963 from HoW. Total of 1.4074 HP/s. Throw in a 50% chance of AS for 0.5*3/13.5 for another 0.1111 HP/s for good measure, and we'll call it 1.52 HP/s.

CS>HoW>J gives CS-HoW-J-CS-X-HoW-CS-J-X- repeat.
HP gen is identical to the above case, because we still have 2 HoW and 2 J per complete cycle. We also could have guessed this because the two situations give identical DPS and HP generation in the general case:
Code: Select all
|    |                                          |    DPS |   SHPS |    DPS |   SHPS | SS/EF | Empty |        |
| Q# | Priority                                 | V=100k | V=100k |  V=50k |  V=50k |   Up% |  GCD% |  HPG/s |
| 56 | CS>J>HoW>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                 |  88063 |  16868 |  54014 |   9909 |   0.0 |   0.0 | 0.3923 |
| 57 | CS>HoW>J>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                 |  88063 |  16868 |  54014 |   9909 |   0.0 |   0.0 | 0.3923 |


HoW>J>CS gives HoW-J-CS-X- repeat. (also identical to J>HoW>CS).
HP gen is 2/6 from HoW, 3/6 from J, 3/6 from CS, for a net of 1.333 HP/s. Ever so slightly lower than the default rotation. AS would be a 20% chance per cycle, or another 0.1 Hp/s, for a net of 1.433 HP/s, still lower than the default rotation with AS.

So Treck is correct that CS>J>HoW is still the optimal HP generation rotation. For max DPS you'd still want to go with HoW>AS>CS>J>HW>Cons>SotR, though it's possible that HoW>J>AS>CS is competitive too (apparently I didn't sim that one, I'll include it in the next round of updates).
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:41 pm

Do those priority sims include AS+ with a glyph of focused shield? Would AS+ take the place of HoW? If I go through a full rotation, there is a point where AS+ taking the place of HoW may result in one extra SotR:

Assuming 5HP:
CS>J>HoW gives CS-J-HoW-CS-X-J-CS-HoW-X- repeat

HA>CS>5HP>J>5HP>HoW>4HP>CS>4HP>X>J>4HP>CS>4HP>HoW>3HP>X>CS>3HP>J>3HP>HoW>CS>5HP>HA is finished

In this rotation, the 5HP/4HP/3HP numbers indicate that a SotR is cast then with that total HP. Assuming 0 latency and 0 haste rating, this entire rotation takes exactly 19.5 seconds. With enough haste to bring this rotation down to 18 seconds, or in other words enough haste to push that last CS into the the HA phase, then it may be a good idea to replace one of those HoW with AS+ just because AS+ would grant a full 3HP instead of 2HP. At the second-to-last spell in the rotation, you can see that there is a HoW cast when the paladin has 0HP. That brings it up to 2HP. In order to cast one last SotR, the paladin must cast another CS. If we prioritize AS+ over HoW, then we have a more ideal situation where we are able to use SotR after every HP-generator in the entire HA phase.

If my calculations are correct (I sort of doubt they are...) then ~8.33% haste should get us that extra GCD in the HA phase. I'm interested in seeing what the different break points for this are. How much haste would be required to get 14 or 15GCDs?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:06 pm

It doesn't assume Focused Shield. In any event, you're assuming that you're getting an AS+ proc from one specific CS (bolded below), which is only a 20% chance. If we got a proc earlier, we'd use it in place of one of the X's. In that case there's no question that it's a DPS and survivability to make that prioritization, but it's only going to hold true for that specific interaction.

HA>CS>5HP>J>5HP>HoW>4HP>CS>4HP>X>J>4HP>CS>4HP>HoW>3HP>X>CS>3HP>J>3HP>HoW>CS>5HP>HA is finished
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Diceone » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:42 pm

Doing dailies today it appears that the HA + HoW is fixed. Not generating any holy power HoW with HA up.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:01 pm

Well, that settles that then.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Thels » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:04 am

Yeah, I was indeed wondering about HoW before AS+ for HP generation. AS+ generates 3, but HoW is more often available.

Either way, the discussion is moot with HoW's bonus HP gone.

That means AS+ before HoW, and HoW before anything else that doesn't generate HP (Except perhaps SS), right?
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