Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Arees » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:37 pm

Theck, I just want to thank you for all the work you put into this. I quit playing WoW about a year and a half ago. I started tanking on my Pally during TBC when we weren't considered real tanks. I wouldn't have had a clue what to do if it weren't for Maintankadin and people here like you. I would never have known about needing to become uncrushable for instance. I used your matlab results all through WotLK and the several months of Cata that I played. It really helped me to be a better tank when I knew exactly how all the different mechanics work.

I pop in from time to time to read the WoW discussions to see if anything wants to make me come back. Sometimes it does a little, but I'm just completely burnt out on MMOs at the moment. Hope all of y'all have fun during MoP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Flitter » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:16 pm

Jaitee wrote:just did some testing in org and casting SS instantly reapplies the 6 second buff (and increases the duration of the original buff too 31-32 seconds) i tested it by casting SS waiting for the 6 second CD to end then recasting when the buff had 3 seconds left and it refreshed back to 6 seconds instantly also popping a strength trinket between refreshes made the new bubble stronger so its definitely a new bubble and not just the duration being refreshed will test it later on taking damage to ensure that it refills the absorb but at the moment it looks like filling every empty GCD with SS casts might be worthwhile and in some fights recasting it almost on cooldown (not negating our hopo based stuff of course) might be that little extra survival we need

also just noticed a bug with reapplying SS when reapplying it it extends the duration like a HoT or DoT and gives you a new 6 second buff i did this and got the duration too 34 seconds with 6 seconds on the absorb however it refreshed the absorb at the 30 second mark when the absorb still had 2 seconds too go so this means reapplying SS gives you even more extra absorbs then the instant refresh you get casting it



Ghostcrawler wrote:One additional paladin note is that we are moving the initial tick of Sacred Shield to the end. We didn't want players to feel like the right way to play was to constantly cancel and overwrite the bubble.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:33 pm

you forgot to mention the 15% extra stam we getting as well.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:22 pm

Klaudandus wrote:you forgot to mention the 15% extra stam we getting as well.

Where was that?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:24 pm

After consideration, we are a bit worried about paladin survivability as well. Shield of the Righteous, buffed by mastery, is a massive amount of mitigation, but the risk is that whenever paladins didn't have it available, they'd risk spike damage. (As an aside, it was also weird for paladins to suddenly be the spikey tank after years of being the opposite.) We're going to increase the Stamina benefit of Guarded by the Light from 15% to 25%.

One additional paladin note is that we are moving the initial tick of Sacred Shield to the end. We didn't want players to feel like the right way to play was to constantly cancel and overwrite the bubble.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=29#574

My bad, its 10%
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:53 pm

Mmmmmm.... juicy stamina.....
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby propal » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:37 am

Have you considered that using WoG each time you get 1 HP to fish for divine purpose proccs to use shotr might be viable?
got the idea after getting 7 wogs in a row (6 divine proccs used on 1 initial HP). might be interesting to see if that method can bring higher ShotR uptime (less control, more rng tho) and be a viable playstyle. would probably end up in macros on buttons everywhere due to not being on gcd.

Not sure if its viable, but it could be.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:40 am

I can fool with it, but keep in mind that there was a blue post stating that 1- and 2-HP WoGs had a lower chance to proc Divine Purpose. To accurately model anything, we'd have to figure out what those chances are (i.e. if it's 25% at 3-HP, is it 15% at 2 and 5% at 1? Or is it 25*2/3 and 25/3?)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby propal » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:10 am

ok, missed that they claimed that, feels like the opposite tbh, atleast (small sample etcetc) feels like wog in general proccs more then shotr for me.

Purely mathematical it can be seen as a geometric series i guess. where a 25% (if that is the case even for 1hp) develops to
1/(1-x) -1 = 33.33% proc per wog -> 1hp per wog. which would mean that we should get shotr as often as by not using this method, but also getting a 1hp wog all the time ontop of it (leading to approx 20% more hp generated compared to normal divine purpose usage). however, alot of but(t)s and if's could probably eat this theory. like, rng, and not being able to actually take advantage of each proc and without delaying hp-generator moves etc.

and ofc the actual proc chance for 1hp WoG is crucial aswell..
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby propal » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:15 am

did some short time testing.
and the proc chance does look rather weird.
I did WoG on 1hp, and on proccs. (prob accidentally got a 2hp wog of once or twice)
got 57 divine purpose procs (yes small sample only)
at a total of 124 WoG's
provided from 78 HP generator attacks.

as can be seen in WoL below.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/bidjux9jfnzux2z0/details/4/

which shows a mindblowingly high proc chance from WoG (even at 1hp) (if im not wrong that means 3.05hp from each holy power generator used). more testing, and where the procc is not used up by WoG is appropriate ofc. and again... yes small sample size is small..
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Treck » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:50 pm

the "lower chance if not 3 holy power" isn't implemented yet (as you can realise from such logs) but it's suppose to be on once mop hits, don't know how it works on the beta.
as you can see from a close to 40% procc rate wow is currently bugged with divine purpose, although I havnt heard any response from blizzard confirming it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby propal » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:24 pm

probably true. for now im trying a "spam macro" spammed while using "normal" rotation

#showtooltip Shield of the Righteous
/cast Shield of the Righteous
/cast Word of glory

which eats all procs for ShotR and all HP used for WoG to generate them. really boring gameplay, but effective.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:04 pm

Treck wrote:the "lower chance if not 3 holy power" isn't implemented yet (as you can realise from such logs) but it's suppose to be on once mop hits, don't know how it works on the beta.
as you can see from a close to 40% procc rate wow is currently bugged with divine purpose, although I havnt heard any response from blizzard confirming it.

40% isn't necessarily bugged, the sample size is tiny. That's within the 95% confidence interval for a 33% proc rate.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Treck » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:48 am

I can assure you the WoG proccing is bugged, especially double proccing.
His logs may be a little tiny, but do one with 1k and you will see that the procc is way higher than 25%.
Some say its bugged due to the fact that WoG only costs one holypower, so when cast with 3 (or with Divine purpose procc) it gains multiple procc chances due to using more than its normal cost in Holypower, but if that would be the case, it doesnt scale with 25% per holypower, so seems off to me, so doesnt seem very likely.
Not to mention that sample only used 1 holy power WoGs.
But something is for sure up with WoG proccing.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby xstratax » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:54 pm

Anyone else finding that the extra 10% Stamina we got as part of the GbtL buff is now gone?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby sahiel » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:12 pm

xstratax wrote:Anyone else finding that the extra 10% Stamina we got as part of the GbtL buff is now gone?

Yep, just logged in to mention it seems to have vanished. No sign whether it was deemed too much or if it is a bug or what's happening yet, although I'm presuming it was someone accidentally using data from the previous version of GBtL when they made the latest patch and not the recently updated one with 25% stam, if it was an intended change I'd expect them to have mentioned something, we'll see.

Edit: Yep, fixed already it looks like, back up to 25% though the tooltip still says 15%.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Cema » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:25 pm

Yup.

I can confirm stamina scaling is now 1.25*1.05 on Beta though the Tooltip says 15% and there is still no sign of Plate Spec in the spellbook
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Flitter » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:38 am

Again some insights directly from Ghostcrawler regarding Divine Purpose:

Ghostcrawler wrote:-- Word of Glory was mistakenly giving two chances to proc Divine Purpose (one for the cast, one for the heal / damage). It now only gives one chance, as you'd expect.
-- As previously mentioned, Divine Purpose's proc chance is supposed to be reduced to 8.33% or 16.66% if you cast a finisher with 1 or 2 Holy Power. That was also incorrectly applying to casts of finishers with Divine Purpose active. For example, suppose you had 4 Holy Power, and cast Light of Dawn (dropping you to 1 Holy Power). That procs Divine Purpose. You then Light of Dawn again. Previously, it would see that you're at 1 Holy Power, and give that second cast only an 8.33% chance to proc Divine Purpose again. This fixes that, so that casts made with Divine Purpose have the full 25% chance to proc Divine Purpose again.
-- Some finishers would proc Divine Purpose instantly when you cast them, and some would have a moment of delay between the cast and you gaining Divine Purpose. Those have been fixed to always proc instantly; it should feel much more responsive now.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:04 pm

I've posted the first batch of sims on the front page. I still have to do the stat weight and weapon simulations, those I'll get to tomorrow. Once I'm done I'll be copy/pasting them all in here for posterity's sake (so we have a copy once I update them eventually with patches).

I also have to put together the gear sets I used on Wowhead for linking, unless someone wants to be kind and do that for me.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby econ21 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:19 am

Thanks for the great work, theck.

Are you planning to evaluate the stats in terms of dps as before? Because I think the work you've done on TDR is more interesting. I guess it's already out in your blog, but if tanks come to this forum wanting to know about stat weights, I think showing them numbers relevant to survivability would be better than showing them dps numbers.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:24 am

Initially, I'm primarily going to look at DPS, since that's what the MATLAB code calculates. I'll probably just link to the blog post and summarize the results for now. Of course, the analytical calculation done in that blog post is all in MATLAB too, so it would be pretty easy to merge it into the bulk of this code, and I plan on doing that in the future.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby aresius » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:30 am

Im glad that you are already updating the 5.0 matlab thread! Ive been checking for updates on a daily basis.
Bits and pieces of feedback:

-Unless im blind, Hammer of Wrath (HoW) listed in the ability damage section does not exist in the glossary.

-In the TLDR of the rotation section the base rotation is discribed as "CS>J>AS>Cons>L90>HW". To me, it is not clear how obvious it would be for someone who didint read that section that "L90" stands for one of the three level 90 talent abilities. Just figured a short explanation line such as "L90 stands for whichever level 90 talent you took" might prevent someone mindlessly asking about it in the thread later on.

-I wanted to also share my view of the WoG glyph:

As expected, a glyphed WoG simulates for less dps then just using the HPs on a SoTR. Yet to me it doesent seem fair to state that the glyph loses value based on that. My view on WoGing is that we will build up buff stacks with SoTR and sit on them, but any time we are soemwhat low on health we just top ourselves off with the WoG: Use it as if it where a mini-LoH. And i cant imagine progression without moments the tank will want to WoG himself.

Considering the premise that we will be using WoG frequently in fights, even if not in a set rotational basis, having the glyph will make the dps loss for the WoGing we are already doing, be smaller. It is probably hard, if not impossible, to math out precisely the dps "gain" of glyphing WoG (comparing Wogging when at low health withought the glyph to wogging with it), since the use of WoG would be a reaction to circunstance (Dont know if one can look at sets of pareses for given fights and reliably give a statistical ammount of times a tank will find himself below X ammount of health).
Point is, putting the WoG glyph in this perspective it seems (to me at least) like an attractive option.

Edit: Case i was unclear, my impression is that paladin tanking in MoP would be similar to DK tanking, but with more mitigation and less frequent heals. For a somewhat simplified example of my thoughts: while a DK would take a big hit for X and then heal it back, repeatedly, a paladin would take 5 X/5 smaller hits and then heal it all back, repeatedly. I imagine the "heal it back" important for both classes so healers would be able to keep each of them alive with inexpensive heals in between the tanks heavy self healing.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Zalaria » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:02 am

Here's the Wowhead linkage for your gear sets, formatted similarly to the 4.X thread:


Gems are the same for all sets:
Blue Socket: [Solid River's Heart]
Red Socket: [Defender's Imperial Amethyst]
Yellow Socket: [Puissant Wild Jade]
Prismatic Socket: [Solid River's Heart]
Meta Gem: [Austere Primal Diamond]

Enchants are the same for all sets:
Shoulder: [Ox Horn Inscription]
Cloak: [Greater Protection]
Chest: [Superior Stamina]
Wrist: [SuperiorDodge]
Hands: [Superior Mastery]
Legs: [Ironscale Leg Armor]
Feet: [Pandaren's Step]
Ring: [Stamina]
Weapon: [Colossus]
Shield: [Greater Parry]


Starter - Pre-5-mans, ilvl 450
Head: [Masterwork Spiritguard Helm]
Neck: [Badge of the Amber Siege]
Shoulder: [Masterwork Spiritguard Shoulders]
Back: [Blade-Dulling Greatcloak]
Chest: [Masterwork Spiritguard Breastplate]
Wrist: [Masterwork Spiritguard Bracers]
Hands: [Masterwork Spiritguard Gauntlets]
Waist: [Masterwork Spiritguard Belt]
Legs: [Masterwork Spiritguard Legplates]
Feet: [Masterwork Spiritguard Boots]
Finger #1: [Heart of the Earth]
Finger #2: [Thunderstone Ring]
Trinket #1: [Iron Protector Talisman]
Trinket #2: [Ghost Iron Dragonling]
Weapon: [Ook's Hozen Slicer]
Shield: [Impervious Carapace (Heroic)]

T14 LFR, ilvl 483
Head: [White Tiger Faceguard (LFR)]
Neck: [Kaolan's Withering Necklace (LFR)]
Shoulder: [White Tiger Shoulderguards (LFR)]
Back: [Daybreak Drape (LFR)]
Chest: [White Tiger Chestguard (LFR)]
Wrist: [Serrated Wasp Bracers (LFR)]
Hands: [White Tiger Handguards (LFR)]
Waist: [Protector's Girlde of Endless Spring (LFR)]
Legs: [White Tiger's Legguards (LFR)]
Feet: [Deepwater Greatboots (LFR)]
Finger #1: [Ring of the Shattered Shell (LFR)]
Finger #2: [Vizier's Ruby Signet (LFR)]
Trinket #1: [Jade Warlord Figurine (LFR)]
Trinket #2: [Vial of Dragon's Blood (LFR)]
Weapon: [Scimitar of Seven Stars (LFR)]
Shield: [Steelskin, Qiang's Impervious Shield (LFR)]

T14 Normal, ilvl 496
Head: [White Tiger Faceguard]
Neck: [Kaolan's Withering Necklace]
Shoulder: [White Tiger Shoulderguards]
Back: [Daybreak Drape]
Chest: [White Tiger Chestguard]
Wrist: [Serrated Wasp Bracers]
Hands: [White Tiger Handguards]
Waist: [Protector's Girlde of Endless Spring]
Legs: [White Tiger's Legguards]
Feet: [Deepwater Greatboots]
Finger #1: [Ring of the Shattered Shell]
Finger #2: [Vizier's Ruby Signet]
Trinket #1: [Jade Warlord Figurine]
Trinket #2: [Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage]
Weapon: [Scimitar of Seven Stars]
Shield: [Steelskin, Quiang's Impervious Shield]

T14 Heroic, ilvl 509
Head: [White Tiger Faceguard (Heroic)]
Neck: [Kaolan's Withering Necklace (Heroic)]
Shoulder: [White Tiger Shoulderguards (Heroic)]
Back: [Daybreak Drape (Heroic)]
Chest: [White Tiger Chestguard (Heroic)]
Wrist: [Serrated Wasp Bracers (Heroic)]
Hands: [White Tiger Handguards (Heroic)]
Waist: [Protector's Girlde of Endless Spring (Heroic)]
Legs: [White Tiger's Legguards (Heroic)]
Feet: [Deepwater Greatboots (Heroic)]
Finger #1: [Ring of the Shattered Shell (Heroic)]
Finger #2: [Vizier's Ruby Signet (Heroic)]
Trinket #1: [Jade Warlord Figurine]
Trinket #2: [Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage]
Weapon: [Scimitar of Seven Stars (Heroic)]
Shield: [Steelskin, Quiang's Impervious Shield (Heroic)]
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:04 pm

aresius wrote:Im glad that you are already updating the 5.0 matlab thread! Ive been checking for updates on a daily basis.
Bits and pieces of feedback:

-Unless im blind, Hammer of Wrath (HoW) listed in the ability damage section does not exist in the glossary.

-In the TLDR of the rotation section the base rotation is discribed as "CS>J>AS>Cons>L90>HW". To me, it is not clear how obvious it would be for someone who didint read that section that "L90" stands for one of the three level 90 talent abilities. Just figured a short explanation line such as "L90 stands for whichever level 90 talent you took" might prevent someone mindlessly asking about it in the thread later on.

Both good catches, I'll update them shortly.

aresius wrote:-I wanted to also share my view of the WoG glyph:

As expected, a glyphed WoG simulates for less dps then just using the HPs on a SoTR. Yet to me it doesent seem fair to state that the glyph loses value based on that. My view on WoGing is that we will build up buff stacks with SoTR and sit on them, but any time we are soemwhat low on health we just top ourselves off with the WoG: Use it as if it where a mini-LoH. And i cant imagine progression without moments the tank will want to WoG himself.

Considering the premise that we will be using WoG frequently in fights, even if not in a set rotational basis, having the glyph will make the dps loss for the WoGing we are already doing, be smaller. It is probably hard, if not impossible, to math out precisely the dps "gain" of glyphing WoG (comparing Wogging when at low health withought the glyph to wogging with it), since the use of WoG would be a reaction to circunstance (Dont know if one can look at sets of pareses for given fights and reliably give a statistical ammount of times a tank will find himself below X ammount of health).
Point is, putting the WoG glyph in this perspective it seems (to me at least) like an attractive option.

In that sort of scenario, the WoG glyph doesn't perform too well. Consider that in the case where we're using all of our HP on WoG to keep up the 6-second 10% damage buff, we only get a ~4k DPS increase over not having the glyph. If we're casting WoG every ~30 seconds instead of every ~7.5 seconds, the effect is going to be a quarter as strong. So in this hypothetical case, the glyph is only worth 1k DPS, and it gets progressively worse as you use WoG less frequently.

So it's a little damage boost to help mitigate the fact that we had to use WoG instead of SotR, but it's still a smaller benefit in those scenarios than Alabaster Shield or Focused Shield would be. If we're willing to run three DPS glyphs, it's arguably a decent choice (though I think you could make equally good arguments for Harsh Words or Final Wrath). But if we're going to take any utility glyphs at all, GoWoG is the one to go.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:45 pm

OK, all of the front page posts that I have done are updated. The AOE sim is next on the list, but it still needs to be written. Enchant/Food sim is still waiting on a dynamic effects module, which has no ETA at this point. Hopefully sooner rather than later, though.

I still need to update the gear sets as well, thanks for compiling them Zalaria.

Let me know if I've missed any weapons of interest in the weapon sim - I think I got them all, but it's entirely possible that I skipped some of the agi or crit weapons, as I compiled the list quite some time ago and may have overlooked them.
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